Maritime NZ proposed new anchor watch rule enforcement

[Ex Machina 366]

Same here can’t access the rules , only getting overviews .

[Norwegian Blue 10]

Nothing in this Part applies to a vessel participating in a race or training or coaching in
relation to other vessels participating in such an activity, if the participants have agreed to
comply with the International Sailing Federation Rules, prescribed by the International Sailing
Federation

So, we are anchoring overnight as part of a training exercise and we have agreed to abide by RRS

[Norwegian Blue 10]

Section 1 – Steering and Sailing

Subsection 1 – Conduct of vessels in any condition of visibility

22.4 Application of subsection 1

Rules in this subsection apply in any condition of visibility.

22.5 Look-out

Every vessel must at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions, so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and the risk of collision.

To my mind a vessel at anchor is neither steering nor sailing. What am I missing?

[CarpeDiem 430]

Which is why we have a judicial system that determines legal meaning.

Do you think that any rights should apply to your vessel while it is anchored?

• If your boat, while anchored, collides with another anchored boat, how should liability be apportioned?
• Should the portion you pay change because say the occupants of the other boat are ashore walking on the beach?
• Should the portion you pay change if the other occupants are asleep downstairs and you couldn't wake them as you tried to stop the collision?

"BILBAINO" v. "DEFENDER." (1921) COLLISION OF ANCHORED SHIPS IN RIVER MERSEY.

THE "SABINE" 1974 - Boat Swinging 180deg on it's anchor in a tide shift colided with a boat passing

[harrytom 643]

1 minute ago, CarpeDiem said:

Which is why we have a judicial system that determines legal meaning.

Do you think that any rights should apply to your vessel while it is anchored?

• If your boat, while anchored, collides with another anchored boat, how should liability be apportioned?
• Should the portion you pay change because say the occupants of the other boat are ashore walking on the beach?
• Should the portion you pay change if the other occupants are asleep downstairs and you couldn't wake them as you tried to stop the collision?

obligations-of-an-anchored-vessel-to-avoid-collision-at-sea

If you were anchored ahead and dragged down on to another vessel,you would be at fault in my mind,as you cant drag to windward.

[CarpeDiem 430]

Just now, harrytom said:

If you were anchored ahead and dragged down on to another vessel,you would be at fault in my mind,as you cant drag to windward.

Dragging is very different - you are underway if you are dragging.  There's (hopefully) no debate if you need a lookout while underway

[Black Panther 1,587]

This rule could be detrimental to safety. After a long difficult passage and arriving at a secure anchorage allowing the crew to sleep will make the boat safer than having someone asleep in the cockpit.

[CarpeDiem 430]

Just now, Black Panther said:

This rule could be detrimental to safety. After a long difficult passage and arriving at a secure anchorage allowing the crew to sleep will make the boat safer than having someone asleep in the cockpit.

Of course.

The point is, it isn't a new law - it has been around for a very long time, at least 100 years based on a simple iLaw search - so wtf are YNZ trying to prove?

[grant 40]

39 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

Dragging is very different - you are underway if you are dragging.  There's (hopefully) no debate if you need a lookout while underway

and isn't the point of an anchor watch to see if you are stable at anchor or underway?

worth keeping in mind these rules apply to whole range of vessel, not just recreational boats tucked up in a sheltered anchorage. 

 

[Black Panther 1,587]

8 minutes ago, grant said:

worth keeping in mind these rules apply to whole range of vessel, not just recreational boats tucked up in a sheltered anchorage

Another example of a blanket ruling that is inappropriate/wrong for some and not others.  One size does not fit all.

However, like lots of other silly rules, it won't be enforced.  Just dragged out once in a blue moon by an insurance company trying to avoid a payout, or by MNZ trying to  cover their arse.

 

[grant 40]

2 hours ago, Black Panther said:

Another example of a blanket ruling that is inappropriate/wrong for some and not others.  One size does not fit all.

However, like lots of other silly rules, it won't be enforced.  Just dragged out once in a blue moon by an insurance company trying to avoid a payout, or by MNZ trying to  cover their arse.

 

it was written in an age when the rule was read with understanding about what it was to achieve, not the current trend of looking at a rule and immediately trying to find a way around it.

Simple is seldom easy to write.

 

[harrytom 643]

Anchor watch,would your chart plotter with anchor drag app be on watch? Had a garmin thing a few ago,set to anchor watch and got up turned it as boat swung ,alarm would go off.

[CarpeDiem 430]

5 hours ago, K4309 said:

Yup, the sole reason for YNZ's existence is a copyright issue.

The single thing that keeps YNZ levying our yacht clubs, and us, so much, is that they control the copyright of the racing rules of sailing, via world sailing.

When the Weiti BC moved to withdraw from YNZ, and all the paid staff came and gate crashed out SGM (accept, of course his holiness) the only thing they could come up with that the Weiti BC would miss out on was the RRS. Nothing else. Nil. Zip. Nadda.

Imagine what the launch owners and Ma & Pa cruisers thought of that?

It's really a Cartel. 

Firstly, World Sailing only allow one national authority per country, so you couldn't set up a competing national authority using the RRS even if you wanted too. 

Secondly, The NZ Government authorise in legislation Yachting New Zealand as the only authority to manage races.  So even if you wanted to create your own set of racing rules and depart from World Sailing's cartelistic monopoly, you couldn't.

There are a lot of clubs that aren't YNZ affiliated.

I always make a mental note when I see entries in a race claiming membership from a club that isn't affiliated - it actually happens a lot. One day, the day will come when one of these boats wrongs me and I am compelled to protest them for not being an affiliated member. 

[K4309 259]

12 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

It's really a Cartel. 

Firstly, World Sailing only allow one national authority per country, so you couldn't set up a competing national authority using the RRS even if you wanted too. 

Secondly, The NZ Government authorise in legislation Yachting New Zealand as the only authority to manage races.  So even if you wanted to create your own set of racing rules and depart from World Sailing's cartelistic monopoly, you couldn't.

There are a lot of clubs that aren't YNZ affiliated.

I always make a mental note when I see entries in a race claiming membership from a club that isn't affiliated - it actually happens a lot. One day, the day will come when one of these boats wrongs me and I am compelled to protest them for not being an affiliated member. 

I've been pondering this, and EM's point.

There should be a straight forward way around an entire club's membership paying cash to YNZ, when only a select few want to race. 

Now, what constitutes a club? It doesn't have to have clubrooms and assets. SSANZ is a good example of that. I assume (without going and checking) its going to need something like a constitution, a functioning committee and be registered as some sort of non-profit legal entity (like a Society, Trust or Club or something).

Now, what is to stop two clubs sharing clubrooms / a venue? So we could have the Weiti Boating Club (Inc), and the Weiti BC (Inc). One could be as per the existing club, with 500 members, a boat load of moorings, hardstand, haulout, clubrooms etc. And not affiliate to YNZ. Then the other could be affiliated to YNZ, run a race programme and members would have access to the copyright of the RRS.

Just like you pay an entry fee for a race series, you pay a membership fee to the legal entity that is affiliated to YNZ. If you just go cruising or motorboating, and want to make use of the club assets such as moorings, clubrooms, haul out and hardstand, you pay a membership fee to entity A. The trick would be in ensuring the administrative burden is less than the cost of the YNZ extortion. If entity B has no significant assets, such as SSANZ, it is in effect the racing committee of entity A. Overall costs will be minimal. It would be like a 'racing' add on to the core membership.

Of course the vested interests at YNZ will squeal like stuck pigs (how long has David Abercrombie been in that role, 15 yrs?) but hopefully the whole exercise will A) save the club a substantial amount of money, and B ) motivate YNZ to sort their sh*t out, and start actually adding value for their core funding base.

[CarpeDiem 430]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

There should be a straight forward way around an entire club's membership paying cash to YNZ, when only a select few want to race. 

Lol.

If your club doesn't need the benefit of YNZ membership then stop providing it. It really isn't complicated.

I find it interesting that you want another club to change to benefit your club.  Or worse you want to engineer a way to get around that other clubs rules. 

Just change your club, if that's what the majority of members want, problem solved. 

[K4309 259]

12 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

Lol.

If your club doesn't need the benefit of YNZ membership then stop providing it. It really isn't complicated.

I find it interesting that you want another club to change to benefit your club.  Or worse you want to engineer a way to get around that other clubs rules. 

Just change your club, if that's what the majority of members want, problem solved. 

You are struggling with reading comprehension aren't you?

Lets see if I can simplify the explanation.

Large club has 500 members. Only 20 want to race. Club wants to run a race programme, but would prefer not to hand over $30k p.a. to YNZ for the privilege.

Existing club sets up a 'paper club' for the purposes of running racing. Said paper club can be domiciled in the premises of large existing club. Large existing club stops paying $30k p.a. to YNZ. Small paper club consisting of 20 members affiliates to YNZ, pays approx $600 for the privilege. Job done.

 

[Ex Machina 366]

Ponder this angle . Imagine you join a “boating “ club not a “yacht” club but you have a cruising yacht . Imagine said club was affiliated with say Offshore power boating NZ . It would be a bit of a piss off if $30 bucks of your sub went towards a powerboating outfit to do whatever with it , you roll with it anyway because it’s the only boating club in your area with decent facilities .

that’s what our launch owners and cruising boat owners , social , crew members plus juniors face with YNZ whether they like it or not .

[CarpeDiem 430]

20 minutes ago, Ex Machina said:

Ponder this angle . Imagine you join a “boating “ club not a “yacht” club but you have a cruising yacht . Imagine said club was affiliated with say Offshore power boating NZ . It would be a bit of a piss off if $30 bucks of your sub went towards a powerboating outfit to do whatever with it , you roll with it anyway because it’s the only boating club in your area with decent facilities .

that’s what our launch owners and cruising boat owners , social , crew members plus juniors face with YNZ whether they like it or not .

I don't disagree with any of that.  But yachting NZ is just another club, a club that your club choses to be a member of.  Just like an individual choses to be a member of your club those members don't get to set the rules.

If you join a club, you play by that clubs rules.  If your club joins the YNZ club then you play by YNZ's rules.

I am a member a squadron, I don't use the facilities, I don't want to go to the restaurant, I don't want anything to do with Americas Cup, I don't want to use the pool table or the library, I don't want to go to the liquor store, I don't want to go to the events that they put on.  I just want to race.

Should Squadron provide me with a discounted membership cause all I want to do is race?  Of course not.

Imagine a member joining your club and refusing to pay their full subscription because they won't benefit from the club showers.

I do think that YNZ's monopoly over the RRS is anti-competitive, that's a different issue, and until some club takes World Sailing to court for monopolistic, anti-competitive, cartelistic behavior it isn't going to change.  Any club should be able to sign up to world sailing to run events under the RRS and pay the appropriate licenses.  You might find that those licenses are more expensive than YNZ - wouldn't that be amusing

[b235 0]

From the YNZ site it does look like MNZ are extending rule 22.5 from "steering and sailing" to include "at anchor".

[K4309 259]

34 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

I don't disagree with any of that.  But yachting NZ is just another club, a club that your club choses to be a member of.  Just like an individual choses to be a member of your club those members don't get to set the rules.

If you join a club, you play by that clubs rules.  If your club joins the YNZ club then you play by YNZ's rules.

I am a member a squadron, I don't use the facilities, I don't want to go to the restaurant, I don't want anything to do with Americas Cup, I don't want to use the pool table or the library, I don't want to go to the liquor store, I don't want to go to the events that they put on.  I just want to race.

Should Squadron provide me with a discounted membership cause all I want to do is race?  Of course not.

Imagine a member joining your club and refusing to pay their full subscription because they won't benefit from the club showers.

I do think that YNZ's monopoly over the RRS is anti-competitive, that's a different issue, and until some club takes World Sailing to court for monopolistic, anti-competitive, cartelistic behavior it isn't going to change.  Any club should be able to sign up to world sailing to run events under the RRS and pay the appropriate licenses.  You might find that those licenses are more expensive than YNZ - wouldn't that be amusing

I don't think that is the best analogy CD. YNZ is not a club. It is a National Body, or otherwise referred to as a National Authority, esp with respect to category ratings and a national handicaping system. Originally it was a Federation of Yacht Clubs, put together to represent those clubs on a national scale. It is simply not doing that now. At best, it is an extension of High Performance Sport NZ.

Something needs to change. Many people have said it. Nothing has happened yet. Keen to hear your ideas.