YNZ Survey

[Battleship 100]

The official line is that the levies imposed don't even cover the costs of member services, which to me would suggest to me they are not very efficient and run like a government department.

[johnMi 2]

It is optional for the clubs, I believe, which is a positive change from years back.

I reckon as I said option 2 would be the go, people could be registered if they want, but then if they aren't, they shouldn't be allowed to race.

It was suggested that it would still be collected through the clubs, it doesn't have to be. It could be directly collected from the individual.

I believe it could possibly be done also on the boat. The bigger the boat, the more sailors involved, the more the cost.

Maybe it should also be factored in the amount of races raced as well. Let's face it, the more the cost is spread over those involved, the easier for all.

I'm all for users pays.

[Murky 1]

It was suggested that it would still be collected through the clubs, it doesn't have to be. It could be directly collected from the individual.

I believe it could possibly be done also on the boat. The bigger the boat, the more sailors involved, the more the cost.

Maybe it should also be factored in the amount of races raced as well. Let's face it, the more the cost is spread over those involved, the easier for all.

I'm all for users pays.

Now you are starting to have ideas outside the allowable three options John. I'm afraid we seem to have dragged you down to our level.

[PaulR 3]

If there was a user pays per crew per race entry, a whole empire could be created with concession cards, one clip per race etc;

so who clips the "left at home cards "

 

OR do clubs need crew lists as entry forms So which yacht(s) in Auckland have the same constant crew members for a season

Did that singular yacht not have any changes last season

 

Can I get a refund because XXX missed the boat and YYY was still hungover and only at 25% usefulness, if that.

 

Perhaps the alternative is for those who are multiple club members need only pay the YNZ Levy ONCE to YNZ; receive their "unique YNZ number", quote that unique YNZ number on their club membership tax invoice and pay the clubs the $balance = $membership - $levy.

 

Names & numbers to be on YNZ website.

 

NO YOU CAN'T BORROW MY NUMBER THIS YEAR

 

So the concepts that apply to other sports (rugby, netball etc) where you pay the levy when you sign on for the year/season for a given team.

 

Whilst a simple idea, it would be a nightmare for many yachties including myself, who over summer season have been often known to race every day on a different boat at a different club, sometimes for several continious weeks without a break. (4 weeks, 2 years ago)

Monday = Stewarts

Tuesday = Ladies / mixed

Wednesday = Richmond / Squadron

Thursday = Ponsonby

Friday = Squadron or Ponsonby or Richmond

Saturday = Squadron

Sunday = Ponsonby / Richmond

Monday = What back on S34's again.

Plus the odd Panmure YBC + Bucklands BYC + SSANZ + RAYC + NZ Multihull + . . . . Hobsonville last year but it's been a while since I have done a Devonport YC or Milford CC race; BoI Combined etc.

 

Another YNZ suggestion was to somehow levy recreational casual cruisers. So if you take a random friend's family member out for a jolly, is a levy payable

 

Whilst it is good to look at different ways and seek suggestions, the admin collection costs can easily outway the benefits.

 

Yachting is a little unique in that we do not have stadium events to sell tickets to. Similar outdoor sports are able to have both public and ticked events to fall back on e.g. Marathon, Iron Man, Cross Country Running, Equestian Cross Country etc do have within $ticketed stadium events.

 

NO I was just walking on the beach so NO I'm not paying a $ticket /levy to watch a yacht hull down on the horizon sail into the sunset, or the abbreviated version, would be a common if not widespread kiwi response.

 

YNZ can't sell "day trips/rides" on racing yachts to the public. OSH, MSA, SSM have & make all those rules.

 

Having said all that, I'm off to Westhaven to get Green Pepper ready for YNZ's Have A Go for Disabled People on Saturday but I don't think the Auckland Blind Sailing Club Inc. can charge per trip. Donations are always welcome.

[johnMi 2]

Now you are starting to have ideas outside the allowable three options John. I'm afraid we seem to have dragged you down to our level.

That's what I am trying to convey to you all, they DID give you the option to give an alternative.

And murky, I'm as low as you go, I thought you all had figured that out by now, so can't drag me any lower.

[Zoe 8]

If clubs start opting out and we lost YNZ, would we miss them? The answer is yes we would.

 

Running my own business for ten or more years, I've worked for several bureaucratic and inefficient organisations. I don't think YNZ is one of them. That's not to say it's a perfect set up, but if you look at what recreational and racing boaties of the type that are reading this forum (cruisers, keelboat owners etc) actually contribute to the kitty, it is my belief that we are getting a fair bit of value back. The only problem is a large proportion of the value is intangible - we don't see it, and it's hard to qualify.

 

I am also very involved with a small dinghy club and it is a fairly big expense for us, but it's significantly less than our insurance bill and other funds that we have to cough up for each year.

[Atom Ant 0]

Hi Zoe, I agree and disagree with you. Yes I can see the benefits of YNZ, but alot of people don't. It's a bit like the AA for motorists. Not all want to join but some do. YNZ needs to be able to show the benefits of membership, not just force people into joining because they say it's a good idea. As an example, the AYBA appears to be doing more for the common or garden boatie than than YNZ - I'm not saying this IS the case, I'm just saying it APPEARS that way.

 

Sorry, boss is coming gotta go - finish later.

[Zoe 8]

They don't force people to join. They do base their fee calculation on the number of (senior equivalent) members that a club has but that is just a tool for making a calculation, and one they are asking for opinions on. No-one 'joins' YNZ - you join your club which is either YNZ affiliated or isn't. Nearly all are.

 

Some people may not be able to see/understand the benefits, but that doesn't mean they don't receive them.

 

The YNZ fee per club member that is paid is very low, if you factor in all members and not just seniors. I think it's about $14 per club member (roughly $440000 /30000 members) It's just that they currently calculate it based on adult members, in order to remove the burden from junior sailors. In Briefings alone I think I get pretty good value from my $14 per annum!

 

For big boat sailing, one of the biggest problems I believe is that the vast majority of crew members don't join a club - they basically get huge enjoyment from the sport without contributing financially, and therefore most of the the financial burden falls on boat owners. If I was god I'd find some way of ensuring that crew members on race boats were financial members of a sailing club. Then the clubs would be better resourced.

 

Our sport does a lot with a little, especially at grass roots level. I don't know specifically what the AYBA is up to at the moment but often with these organisations it comes down to a few volunteers getting passionate about a cause and putting in a lot of time, and making big inroads. Their time might be worth a lot of $$ a year but they don't charge for it - but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value. I'm seeing it happening now with our own little club where there is a great team working really hard, and making things happen but it is a truckload of work - masses of time out of people's family lives and away from their businesses and work too. Ultimately the sport needs more of that - it's what it was built on in the good old days when we really were a national sport. I think we should be looking more at making the sport successful in our own backyards.

 

Cheers,

 

Zoe

[Battleship 100]

Zoe, I don't think $33 per member is very low when you compare it to other body affiliations such as fishing or diving which are around $8 per member. This thing comes up almost every year yet nothing changes.

[Zoe 8]

Willow, I don't know anything about organisations that administer fishing and diving, and what they deliver to their members/member clubs, but the YNZ fee is definitely not $33 per yacht club member. Around $440000 is collected each year and there are just over 30,000 members nationwide (including juniors, social, associate, families etc), which works out around $14 per member.

 

The $33 as I understand it is a basis for calculating the fee for an individual club based on the number of senior equivalent members - which is basically club's membership income divided by the annual membership fee for seniors x $33 (don't quote me on that but it's something close to it!!)

 

Depending on how you look at it you could say that the seniors are subsidising the juniors, or you could say that it's spread out over everyone, and it's just a way of doing the invoicing.

 

I don't necessarily support the way this is calculated, and to be honest I steer clear of financial stuff as much as possible, but I do think that ultimately we aren't all that hard done by.

 

If you ask for $8 from each of 30,000 club members you get $240,000 a year to work with to support club sailing (not high performance etc). Let's assume everything else that has a fee attached like safety is self funding (it's not). I guess you could employ a couple of reasonable people and give them laptops and phones and put them in a room to work, and ask them to economise on toilet paper and printing costs and travel as much as possible, but they'd be spread pretty thin and I don't think you'd be seeing anything close to what the sport is getting from YNZ as it is now, not for an organisation that supports a sport on a national level. As somebody else has pointed out, we don't have a lot of options for other income streams in this sport unfortunately.

 

If cost is a major issue for us, and it obviously is, then you have to look at the sport's physical infrastructure - there are a lot of very small clubs all with fairly big overheads (clubhouse, fleet maintenance, insurance, etc) competing for a share of a small participant pie. We need to streamline that infrastructure (shut down some of the clubs), or grow the pie. Neither are easy - growing the pie is my preferred option. Largely that means as a sport we have to stop doing things the same old way, and start thinking about what people want and giving it to them. In the main this has to come from clubs and individuals, who will in turn be supported by YNZ.

 

We are seeing it happen very successfully at our club, which is back from the dead nearly literally, and we do it with nearly nothing in a financial sense... participation is growing at an encouraging rate, as is membership and membership related revenue. We also call on YNZ quite a bit to help. Kim Admore has given a lot of advice and hands-on assistance, as has Jodie Bakewell-White, and others from YNZ. More clubs should make use of them, definitely, and make sure they get their money's worth. But losing them for the sake of $6 per member? Nah not worth it.

 

Okay this has turned into a bit of a novel and my kids are screaming and hungry. Better go.

[Battleship 100]

I know exactly how it is worked out, and within our club it works out to $33 per member.

It is by far our largest expence for our club we are constantly looking at what we get for our $14000 per annum and it isn't much.

[Zoe 8]

I know exactly how it is worked out, and within our club it works out to $33 per member.

It is by far our largest expence for our club we are constantly looking at what we get for our $14000 per annum and it isn't much.

 

If it works out that high for your club and its membership demographic, then make a good case for it to be changed. I am sure they are listening, and that is why they have issued a survey.

[Atom Ant 0]

And the SEM levy is set to go up to $40 per member. For our club it will equal 14K, and we are being told that we have to pay it and that currently there is no alternative. YNZ has acknowledged that they are not seeking to reduce the amount of funding they receive, but merely how it is divvied up between the clubs - that's my understanding at least.

 

In a club where there are almost no junior members as they are nearly all adults, this SEM levy system works out as being very expensive, when perhaps only 30 - 40 of them race and maybe only a handful want to race in events outside of the club run ones. The rest of the members struggle to understand the benefit they derive from YNZ membership.

 

JohnMi, there is no law that says a club can't run its races without YNZ membership, they simply wouldn't be allowed to use the ISAF rules, and its members in theory wouldn't be able to compete in races run by other clubs under ISAF.

 

But I can say without any shadow of a doubt that most clubs don't care if visiting boats/owners/crews are affiliates of YNZ or not - rightly or wrongly. I have never ever been asked for proof of YNZ affiliation at any event I've ever sailed in. (Remember that I'm talking club level sailing here - I'm no hotshot sailing at big events) I may have been asked if I belonged to a yacht club, but when I didn't, it didn't stop them from accepting my entry. This includes larger Auckland city based yacht clubs.

[Battleship 100]

Sounds like your in a similar situation to us AA and most of us within our club that race with other clubs belong to them as well, only fair really, I personally belong to three clubs.

 

Unfortunately we are in the minority so most vote for the status quo as they are quite happy, if clubs start dropping out more they will need to extract the same amount from a smaller pool of members.

[Zoe 8]

Willow and AA, with a problem solving hat on, how do your clubs cover their overheads (including YNZ, rates, insurance, power etc) - is it via revenue from sailing fees like entry fees and memberships, or is it from other sources like venue hireage? Just curious - I suspect venue hireage and non-sailing related hospitality subsidises many clubs?

[Battleship 100]

Its a mix for us Zoe, previously the club was self supporting in that through sales over the bar and hireage of the function room that money would cover the costs of maintaining the building and wages for staff etc. but this year due to the downturn we have have to dip into our funds to do work on the building, still only a fraction of the YNZ levy though.

[Atom Ant 0]

WBC membership fees are average from what I've seen. We have moorings which provide revenue and a yard which also provides some revenue. However ever-increasing environmental compliance costs are putting pressure on that and will inevitably result in significant increases in charges to members over the coming years to recover the cost of residue capture & filtration etc. (we are fine with the cost of keeping being clean & green, but it is VERY expensive) Racing will for the first time be cost neutral as we have determined that it needs to be self supporting. Our clubrooms are available for members to use but revenue from that isn't very much and our bar doesn't make alot of money.

 

A significant proportion of our members are retired too.

[Guest]

NZ has the best Americas Cup Skipper EVER.

I do believe John Bertrand is actually Australian.

 

 

The biggest issue YNZ has with charging YC's/member/whoever fees is what Zoe mentioned. About all you 'see' them do is promote a few very top end sailors. They do do other stuff but most never get to see or even know that they do. Go read their site and it's chocker with wonderful PC dribble word 'mission statements' and the like but knot a lot there saying 'we lobbied these people for this reason', gave Nowhere YC some bucks to help fund a training fleet and stuff like that. I have taken a look at what they do for me personally, I see a few little things but knot that much really. But I pay, multiple times, and do so just on the hope it goes to a good reason.

 

YNZ have the power, no idea who gave them it or why they have it but they do. Just like any organisation of that type they will defend that power and the revenue streams they need to maintain it. Unless anyone can come up with a simple to run replacement system that maintains YNZ's revenue or reduces their costs to match any reduction in income, it won't change.

 

But YNZ do run a risk, and have walked that tightrope on a few occasions, that if they aren't 'seen' to be doing more than just funding a dozen Olympians they may lose relevance in the eyes of many who may just go bad on them. A couple of time in the past there has been talk of setting up a parallel organisation focused more on the average boater. All were nullified by YNZ (with the odd poorly veiled threat) and other reasons but if someone went hard tomorrow YNZ may find they have a problem.

 

There has been some talk recently about a break away organisation by a small few. It's very small, specifically focused on one particular small corner of yachting and relates to YNZ, seemingly blindly and without asking it's members, just accepting any old crap chucked out by ISAF. It's knot a mass revolt just a few who think some of the requirements YNZ, via ISAF, want is just bloody stupid, unnecessarily costly and only done in the name of butt covering. I don't think it'll go far if anywhere at all, or at least knot in the short term.

 

It's things like that YNZ need to look out for and adjust to suit. If one mob breaks away it could easily open a flood gate. It's happening overseas for the same reasons. So if they can spread the word further and with more detail as to where the coin is actually being spent it would sure help their cause I would say. Also they need to think more 'NZ' i.e. ISAF thinks Europe and Big, NZ isn't either of those so YNZ needs to NZifiy it's thinking more.

 

Gawd, I hate writing stuff when I know Zoe's watching. She's so much more articulate and can actually spell

[Zoe 8]

The sport is in between a rock and a hard place really. Small population, big coast, lots of clubs, participation numbers severely down on the days when most of our clubs were built. If there were more sailors that would spread the load. Less clubs there would be less load to have to spread. It was the threat of losing our club that made a couple of guys take on the challenge of making it work, about five years ago. Now momentum is gathering and it's going really well, though still fragile. I am sure that we aren't the only ones in that position and if you are running a club that has to service marinas and docks and stuff, making ends meet must seem like a huge mission every year.

 

I'm involved with dinghies now and see it as being a really 'cheap' sport once you've made the upfront investment. A season's sailing with my daughter is way cheaper than her ballet lessons. Club membership and a season's sailing fees is less than $200 covering up to about 20 sailing days, boat costs is just just trailer reg - oh and I had to buy a new bung for the dinghy last year (or I think someone gave it to me??) But I do remember the days when I owned a keeler and money flowed out of my bank account and it was never-ending. And because I am involved and know the people, albeit on the periphery, I can see that YNZ do a lot of good work, but I have talked about that above.

 

Thanks for your input Willow, AA and Knot Me. I can understand where you are coming from and it shows that the requirements of various clubs are vastly different in many ways (and very similar in other ways). I am glad coming up with the solution isn't on my shoulders. I will await the outcome with interest.

[johnMi 2]

johnMi wrote:

NZ has the best Americas Cup Skipper EVER.

KnotMe wrote:

I do believe John Bertrand is actually Australian.

 

You don't really mean that KM, do you?

 

Zoe makes some very good points, and agree wholeheartedly with what she says, (and that's one thing I agree with you about KM, she say's it very eloguently)

 

I also believe that we don't realize how lucky we are in NZ at the cost of sailing. Go to Sydney and it's different. Go to Europe and it's even more.

RNZYS has just put up their race fees, I hate to say it, but they are realistic compared to overseas costs. I know some clubs race fees are VERY cheap at $10 to $15 but that doesn't help them with YNZ bills.

I reckon $30 for a race is reasonable, 2 hrs of organised enjoyment with the added bonus of winning a prize.