Gun Thread

[Guest]

This thread got shut down on CF, it astarted with this

 

Not sure how many are following Matt Rutherford's solo sail around north and south America, but he used his shotgun to scare off a boat whose intentions were NOT clear 120 miles off the coast of Brazil.

 

From his blog:

 

 

The boat passed close by so I turned on all my lights so it could seem me. As far as I could tell it was a fishing boat but no one was fishing. There was very little wind so I was only going 1.5kts and starting my engine wasn’t an option so I couldn’t really maneuver much. The boat passed by again even closer, maybe fifty feet away and I could hear them talking and laughing. I thought they are probably drunk. They started to circle my boat so I got out my new handheld VHF and yelled at them on channel 16. I?m sure they don?t understand English but they would surly understand yelling. They passed by again even closer than before. I wanted to go back to bed and I wasn’t in the mood to play games with drunken fishermen 120 offshore so I grabbed my 12 gauge and my last 20 shells. I thought, pass by one more time. They did and when they were 20 feet away I put two rounds in the air, there boat fell silent there engines RPM drastically increased and they took off. I watched them go over the horizon then I went to bed.

 

 

In my opinion the guy did us all a disservice and was probably lucky he didn't get himself killed.. What say you?

[Grinna 2]

So easily scared off by 2 shots in the air, I'd say they weren't seriously intending and planning on mischief, but who really knows their intentions.

 

Right now there could be a bunch of fishermen telling their mates a story with wide eyes and gesticulating hands about how they were out one night and saw this wierd sailboat flopping about with no wind and they went over to check it out and see what was wrong and all of a sudden this madman starts shooting at them!!!! Probably an attempt by pirates to lure them in and rob them!!

 

[Tubthumper 0]

I think if their intentions were clear they wouldn't have circled at distance. You'd just drive straight up, right?

If you saw a guy with a shotgun (I know it was dark so they wouldn't have been able to see him or the gun), you'd make sure he knew you had good intentions.

 

 

Maybe it's a good way to get the fisherman off the end of the tank farm? JOKING!

[Fusion 0]

At night a M$%^F@#$#$ Spot light would be a much safer option. Light them up

[Guest]

Must be an American. If so surprised it wasn't a machine gun. Down to his last few shells! What does he shoot at at sea?

[Fogg 427]

Sounds American which might have saved him from some opportunists looking for a soft target. Which they quickly realised he wasn't.

 

Maybe they had no bad intentions but why take the risk when they were obviously circling him with something in mind?

 

In some parts of the world these opportunists avoid American boats for the very reason they have a reputation for being armed. Easier to pick a softer target.

 

I agree the whole 'would you be prepared to shoot first?' question can complicate things but in this case he did it in a way that worked effectively.

 

So his approach worked. What's to argue?

[otto 31]

Read his original post,

50-60 ft, he had his lights on and was alone, they made no attempt at being friendly or even showing themselves.

with all that is happening in open waters good on him, just hope it was a pump action and he had another three in quick reserve.

[Fusion 0]

How about popping up a big white Flare ?

[Island Time 1,235]

I understand why he did this. Been in the same situation myself, although 2 handed. It is scary.

 

My thoughts are that if the boat is armed and seriously intent on piracy, he would have started a gunfight. He would lose. One boat I know of was attacked by 14 skiffs, all with 6 odd men, all with AK's. No chance in that situation.

 

If they are opportunist thieves then he would scare them off. Same if curious fishermen.

 

it is easy to say he was right or wrong if you are not there.

 

I use a large floodlight first, then I have a Milspec Laser - similar to what the US marines use - It is very bright, and can cause permanent blindness. It's a last resort - we have no firearms....

[Rats 28]

The number of passes made by this boat would have me on edge as it is now way beyond checking someone out and is in my mind borderline intimidation.

Have had a brand new avon dinghy & a 30hp Yamaha nicked while at anchor in Montserrat would have loved a gun then, Have told locals in another harbour to bugger off when I caught them paddling out to to the boat in darkness to which they replied "Oh mon we got a motor problem" I suggested they paddle back to shore and sort it out because they were clearly paddling the wrong way to get help.They were convinced when they saw I was holding a gun and rather interestingly their motor coincidently came to life- fancy that.

I have had a good friend and his crew and charter guests shot and killed after two Antiguan locals saw the charter guest withdraw a large amount of cash from a local bank then followed him back to the boat. They found out where it was headed and paddled out in the middle of the night and robbed them then sat everyone down in the saloon and offed them all with a shotgun.

I have had guns on board some vessels (a stainless steel Ruger Mini 14 is my favorite) and none on others although a Very pistol makes a nice back up and gets classed as "safety equipment" in most places.

So as you can see there are some quite valid reasons to pack heat on board.

But really after all of this I don't really see the point especially these days when there is such nervousness regarding pirates (believe me even if you have a couple of shotguns and a machine gun the chances are they got more firepower than you) and it all gets taken off you and bonded for the duration you visit a country and then you waste the better part of half a day getting it back before leaving, these days its more hassle than its worth. Superyachts get around threats of piracy by employing mercenaries who arrive with lots of inconspicuous duffel bags that fall over the side end of mission less hassle with customs that way. But you'd have to have pretty deep pockets to do that on most sailing boats. I would stick with a flare gun now with lots of anti collision whites.

[Guest]

Read his original post,

50-60 ft, he had his lights on and was alone, they made no attempt at being friendly or even showing themselves.

with all that is happening in open waters good on him, just hope it was a pump action and he had another three in quick reserve.

Oh go put on your tin foil hat

 

How would they know he was alone? If he turned his lights on then maybe but only a maybe.

50-60ft fishing looking boat, unusual size for a pirate and there are gazillions of 50-60ft fishing boats out there.

Doing a close fly by doesn't sound that secret squirrel so they weren't hiding.

He said they were laughing and he said he 'thought' drunk. Fact verse assumption.

He said their intentions were knot clear so they may have been the devil himself or equally they may have been coming out to offer him beer and blowjobs.

If he is American they do have a bit of a history of over reaction, paranoia and a love of guns.

Was he keeping a good lookout or was he inadvertently on a direct course with a unseen boat fishing who then decided to take evasive action and then take a closer look at who was looking to run them down.

 

It could easily have been just a nosey local and a burst of paranoia as it could have been Osama Bin Laden's maritime division.

 

I don't read anything sinister in that story bar a potentially loose tired solo sailor with weapons.

[wheels 543]

I remember closing down many Gun threads on CF. They seemed to poo up at least once a month. It always just became an argument of Yanks with the belief they had the Right of the Second amendmant anywhgere in the world. One US sailor even fired at a Boat that was actually over thier Horizon. They had some big calibre Gun and poicked uo a boat on the radar. They considered to to be suspicous and so fired a burst at the target over the Horizon and the Target moved off. I was astounded at the arrogance.

The thing is that apart from Somalia, most of the Pirate waters are more myth than actual

I think several issues need to be considered if anyone is thinking of taking a Gun out there witb them. First off, not a grerat deal of countries let you take Guns across their Borders. Some have serious concequinces for ones that do.

Most of the time it's fisherman trying to trade fish for smokes. It is only the very large ships that tend to be targeted.

[rigger 47]

It is only the very large ships that tend to be targeted.

 

I disagree with that comment, I was on a ~45m tug, got chased by 3 smaller vessels, they gave up and went after a number of yachts.

[Guest]

I made a decision, years ago (1970s) that carrying guns was detrimental to one's health.

 

I had been a trained soldier - active service in South Vietnam etc - and so I'm familiar with most of the usual weapons presented by pirates. Even so, I am not confident that I alone could counter

anyone armed with intent to do me or my crew or my ship any harm.

 

Twice, since demobilising from the NZ army, I have been challenged under arms.

 

One occasion (1975) will suffice to illustrate my point.

 

We (four of us) were enjoying a pleasant evening at an anchorage off Sumatra, when we were boarded by a group of Indonesian youths - drunk, armed with rifles, and very stroppy. Although merry, as one is at the end of such an evening, I quickly sobered up and concluded that resistance was stupid. We negotiatied an expensive settlement, comprising booze and cigarettes and, although humbled (not to say humiliated) by the incident, we lived to see another day.

[wheels 543]

The vast majority tend to be large Ships now rigger. Not saying yachts never get targeted, but it is a very small percentage to the overall numbers.

I think this says very clearly just who is doing the "Pirating". Once again, this is other than Somalia) It has to be some very large scale operations because they can make a huge Cargo ship disappear, plus unload and sell that Ships huge Cargo. That is not something just a couple of guys in a small wooden fishing boat can do. There has to be a huge organisation behind it.

[rigger 47]

The vast majority tend to be large Ships now rigger. Not saying yachts never get targeted, but it is a very small percentage to the overall numbers.

 

If you were to look at the numbers of ships versus yachts in the area you would expect more ships to be attacked.

Also the 'pirates' know they will get a bigger ransom for a ship due to the value of it's cargo.

The point I was making is that the smaller vessels - yachts - are attacked as I experienced.

I think the smaller vessels being attacked are those of opportunity rather than planned.

 

On the cargo being off loaded that seems to be fairly rare, be interested in seeing further information.

 

below is copy of a email update I receive every so often:

 

Hi Guys,

Here are a few clippings on piracy news.

 

Pirates kidnap two in attack off Nigeria:

 

Armed pirates opened fire on a cargo ship in an attack off the Nigerian coast, kidnapping the captain and chief engineer and robbing the crew before escaping, a maritime watchdog said Wednesday.

Tuesday's attack also left one crew member missing and another injured, the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) said, and was the latest in a series of incidents indicating heightened piracy in the Gulf of Guinea.

The assault at about 1500 GMT Tuesday targeted a Dutch-owned, Curacao-flagged refrigerated cargo ship that was anchored near the coast, said Noel Choong, head of the IMB's Kuala Lumpur-based piracy reporting centre.

A group of about eight pirates armed with guns carried out the attack on the ship, which had a crew of 14, he said, adding that Nigerian authorities had been alerted.

"We have been advised that there was a crew of 14 on board, made up of Russians, Ukrainians and Filippinos," Michael Howlett, divisional director of the IMB told AFP on telephone from London.

He declined to disclose the nationality of the two abducted sailors.

Choong said he had received no word yet on the fate of those reported missing or whether any ransom was being demanded.

"The attacks off the Nigerian coast are very violent and they are increasing," Choong said.

"So far we have seen seven attacks off Nigeria this year and one off of Benin. So that makes eight since the beginning of the year and we believe many more attacks may have gone unreported."

Two weeks ago, pirates fired on a cargo vessel off Nigeria, killing the ship's captain, according to the IMB.

 

Choong said that vessel's chief engineer died from a fall during the attack, correcting earlier reports that he also had been shot dead.

That ship was Panamanian-flagged but its owners were Taiwanese, he said.

The IMB has said other recent attacks in the area included a tanker that was hijacked south of Nigeria earlier in February. Nigerian vessels intercepted that ship and rescued its crew.

The IMB, which is funded by shipowners, warned in September that the seas off Benin, Nigeria's neighbour, were emerging as a new piracy "hotspot" due to the weak enforcement capabilities of governments in the region.

Attacks on vessels have grown in number and scope, spreading across a broader region in what is becoming a new piracy hotspot. Vessels carrying petroleum products have been the most targeted.

Nigeria, Africa's largest oil producer, and neighbouring Benin last year launched joint sea patrols with the backing of France.

Leaders of 15 ECOWAS member nations have ordered their military chiefs to urgently draw up plans to crack down on the increasing threat from piracy and organised maritime crime.

 

Danish Navy Rescues 16 Hostages From PiratesVOA News

•

The Danish Navy says it has freed 16 hostages held by Somali pirates, but two other hostages were apparently killed during the rescue operation.

 

The warship Absalon fired on and intercepted a pirate mother ship as it tried to sneak away from the Somali coast Monday, according to a Danish Navy statement.

 

It says Absalon crew members boarded the ship and found 17 suspected pirates along with 18 hostages from the ship's original crew. It says two of the hostages were found badly injured and died, despite medical attention.

 

The statement said it is not clear how the hostages died, and an investigation is underway.

 

Warships from several countries patrol waters near Somalia in an effort to stop pirates from hijacking vessels that pass through the Gulf of Aden and northern Indian Ocean.

 

Somali pirates have made hundreds of millions of dollars in ransom by seizing ships in recent years.

 

The number of successful hijackings has dropped sharply during the past six months. Analysts credit the trend mainly to ships taking better security measures, such as keeping armed guards on board.

 

Alert issued for Bab el Mandeb Straits - Maritime Security Alert

A maritime security alert has been issued for the Bab el Mandeb Straits after a bulk carrier was reportedly approached by a group of ten skiffs at 0430 local time on 27 February in position 12:29N – 043:41E.

Reports suggest nine skiffs approached from the starboard side and one from port, but were ultimately deterred by a series of warning shots fired from the vessel. The incident followed a similar unsuccessful attack in the vicinity on 15 February, when a chemical tanker was approached by a group of seven skiffs. Vessels were first 'swarmed' by large groups of skiffs attempting to overpower vessels in the Gulf of Aden and the Bab el Mandeb Straits in 2011; the tactic is likely to be repeated as pirates attempt to overcome the low success rates achieved in recent months. Early detection of such attacks is crucial to allow time for speed to be increased and evasive manoeuvres to be taken before deploying any security measures available.

 

Out of sight, Somali piracy fight gets rougher When tanker master Miro Alibasic takes one of his company's vast ships across the Indian Ocean, he likes to have all the firepower he can get on board. Having seen last year how Somali pirates treat their captives, the 61-year-old is in no hurry to experience it again. "It was hell on earth," he told Reuters by telephone from his home in the Croatian port of Dubrovnik. The number of ships seized in the region by Somali pirates fell last year, industry data shows, but the overall number of attempted attacks continues to rise and the raids have become increasingly violent. Breaking the piracy "business model" and tackling Somalia's onshore problems will be among the aims of a major international conference on Somalia in London on Thursday. But few are optimistic of a solution any time soon, and shippers say they must take matters into their own hands. Greater use of private armed security guards on ships and a much tougher approach by international navies is beginning to work, some mariners, officials, contractors and military officers say. But others worry they may simply fuelling a growing arms race, ramping up the conflict and producing a rising human and financial cost.In March last year, Alibasic was transporting a cargo of crude oil from Sudan to Asia when his tanker - the 100,000 ton United Arab Emirates-registered Zirku - came under attack. For 90 minutes, the pirates poured heavy machine gun and rocket propelled grenade fire into the vessel. Then they were aboard, swarming over the two levels of barbed wire that surrounded the decks.

The ferocity of the initial onslaught, he says, was matched by much of the treatment suffered by him and his 28 crew during their 75 days in captivity. As the shipowners negotiated the payment of an unspecified but reportedly "massive" ransom, he did everything he could to keep the multinational crew - including Jordanians, Egyptians, Ukrainians and Pakistanis - safe from sometimes drugged and bored captors. "I read them poetry and played them opera to try to calm them down," he said, adding that he also played chess with the pirate leader "Abdallah" to win his respect. "But they nearly hanged my second mate." The unlucky second officer's only offence, he said, was to have demanded the right to have a shower after spending hours working in the tanker's sweltering engine room. By the time Alibasic persuaded the pirates to let him go, the rope was already around his neck. Seafarers' organisations say the treatment of prisoners has worsened over time. Other sailors have been suspended hung upside down for hours, dumped overboard or even keelhauled - dragged under the ship from one side to the other on a rope, a traditional punishment of the age of sail barely reported since the 17th or early 18th centuries. Estimates suggest at least 60 seafarers have died. TOUGHER NAVAL APPROACH When the pirates forced Alibasic to sail back out into the Indian Ocean to rescue some of their stranded colleagues, he found himself on the receiving end of a new set of naval rules of engagement. On one of his trips, his tanker came under fire from the U.S. Navy. "I got on the radio and said: "What are you doing? They (the pirates) will kill us all ... They were using us as human shields," he said. About 25 warships from various nations now patrol the Indian Ocean at any given time. Some states - such as Russia - have always adopted an aggressive approach when their ships were hijacked, storming them with force and either killing the pirates or leaving them to die in open boats. The United States has also launched special forces missions to rescue its nationals. Other Western states - particularly the Europeans who make up the bulk of EU and NATO-led task forces - were initially more cautious. But even they have started to take a tougher stance, engaging pirate "motherships" and retaking captured vessels. Many commanders have welcomed the new approach, saying it is behind the slump in successful pirate attacks in the second half of 2011. Only 25 ships were seized in 2011, the European Union Naval Force Somalia (EU NAVFOR) says, compared to 47 the year earlier. Pirates now hold six ships and roughly 176 hostages, the EU says, again well down from last year. But average ransoms continue to rise - now about $5 million compared to $4 million last year. Estimates of the cost to the global economy are also up - one report put it at $7 billion in 2011. The fastest growing component of that, the US-based Oceans Beyond Piracy report said, was the cost of the rising number of armed private security guards. At the beginning of 2011, they estimated perhaps a quarter of ships carried such guards, rising to an estimated half now. Shipping companies spent roughly $1 billion on private guards alone in 2011, the report said - much more than the estimated $160 million earned by the pirates themselves in ransoms. SECURITY COSTS, WORRIES Many piracy experts - including serving naval officers - believe it was the private guards who made the real difference against piracy in 2011. But the unregulated industry raises a host of new worries. A 2011 UN report details one incident, in which naval forces rescued a damaged skiff containing one dead Somali and six survivors, who said two other compatriots had also been killed and had fallen overboard. Naval observers concluded gunfire had come from illegally-held weapons on a ship recently attacked by the skiff, but were unable to provide definitive proof. "It's very likely people are being killed out in the Indian Ocean by private guards and it's not being reported," says Rory Lamrock, piracy analyst at UK-based risk consultancy AKE. A former military officer himself, tanker captain Alibasic worries over the moral and legal implications of dispensing lethal force from the deck of a civilian merchant ship. But he also has a more immediate concern - will the guards he now carries on his voyages through the region have enough arms and ammunition to fight off the kind of concerted assault he faced last March? As to solving the wider problem of Somali piracy, he says that is something that will only happen when the world gets seriously involved onshore in the pirate havens of Puntland and elsewhere. "When we had a war in Croatia, we did not become pirates," he says, referring to the Balkan wars of the 1990s. "The international community and the UN came and things were sorted out in only a few years. That's what needs to happen in Somalia."

[Guest]

At least two occasions come to mind where we were very wrong about another vessel's intentions.

 

1) Pacific coast of Central America - big fishing boat passed bow to bow then big turn to come up close astern, close enough that they dropped some fresh fish off their bow into my cockpit and waved.

 

2) approaching a small Carribean Is early hours before dawn - noticed a cigarette type boat shadowing us with no lights, followed every turn I made. That was the local police checking us out.

 

The earlier incident I mentioned where they wanted water was approaching Sri Lanka (and they were wearing hoods - to keep the sun off).

 

And another, just after passing through the Straits of Hormuz a fisherman checked us out - they don't see many sailboats around there.

 

To be honest I think if the people this guy shot at off Brazil were baddies he'd be dead and we we wouldn't be having this discussion.

__________________

[Guest]

I heard an interesting story from the wife of a Brazilian fisherman the other day. He came home from a week out on the boat and told her that on the last night, after they had pulled in their gear and were heading home, they saw a sailing boat in the dark. It was barely moving so they circled it to see if it was OK. Then, just as they were about to pull away having seen nothing, all the lights came on, so they went back to make sure the guy didn't need any assistance.

Well bugger me, next thing they knew he was firing at them, for no reason at all. They high tailed it out of there, but her husband swears if he ever sees another sailing boat out there he'll ram it and sink it without hesitation.

[Fogg 427]

[wheels 543]

Reports for just this year to date.

 

IMB Piracy & Armed Robbery Report

078-12 21.01.2012: 2200 LT: Posn: 22:12.3N - 091:42.1E, Chittagong Anchorage 'B', Bangladesh.

Robbers boarded a Ro-Ro ship whilst awaiting for pilot. Duty watchman sighted the robbers and informed Master. Master raised alarm and reported to coast guard. Robbers noticed crew alertness and escaped with stolen stores. No casualties to crew.

 

077-12 08.03.2012: 0035 LT: Posn: 01:42.4N-101:29.1E, Dumai Inner Anchorage, Indonesia.

Duty watchman saw one robber climbing using thin hooked line on Crude Oil Tanker at anchor. The duty A/B informed bridge who raised alarm, sounded ship's whistle and crew mustered. On noticing the crew alertness, the robber jumped into the water and escaped with two other accomplices waiting in a boat. Nothing stolen and no casualties.

 

076-12 07.03.2012: 1030 UTC: Posn: 04:12.5N – 006:54.6E, Around 5.8nm off Port Harcourt Fairway Buoy, Nigeria.

Seven heavily armed persons in a speed boat approached a chemical tanker underway. The tanker raised alarm, increased speed and set course away from land. The armed naval guards onboard the tanker made their presence known. Later, they aborted the attempted attack and moved away.

 

075-12 02.03.2012: 1219 UTC: Posn: 21:27N – 062:37E, Around 211 nm ENE of Masirah Island, Oman.

Armed pirates in one skiff hijacked a tanker underway. The hijackers took hostage 22 crew members and sailed the tanker towards the coast of Somalia. Further report awaited.

 

074-12 30.01.2012: 0500 LT: Posn: 01:05N – 103:30E, 5nm off Karimun, Indonesia.

Two robbers boarded a tanker during STS operations using a rope attached with hook. The duty pump man noticed the robbers and raised the alarm. The robbers removed the hook and jumped into the water and escaped in their small boat empty handed.

 

073-12 03.03.2012: 2355 LT: Posn: 17:02.88N-082:25.15E, Kakinada Anchorage, India. Around ten robbers armed with knives boarded an anchored bulk carrier via the forecastle. Duty watchmen saw the robbers and raised the alarm. Seeing crew alertness the robbers escaped in two boats with stolen ship's stores. Master informed port control and local agent. No casualties to crew and no damage to ship.

 

072-12 26.02.2012: 0100 LT: Posn: 01:16.1N - 104:17.6E, 11nm from Horsburgh Lighthouse, Singapore Straits.

An unlit speed boat approached a tug towing a barge. The speed boat came alongside the tug and four robbers boarded the tug while two remained in the boat. The robbers wearing masks and armed with guns and knives took hostage C/E and 3/E who did not know the robbers had boarded. The 2/O on bridge noticed the robbers and raised the alarm. All crew except the bridge crew, who were guarded by some robbers were taken hostage. They then stole crew and ship's properties and cash and escaped in the waiting boat.

 

071-12 28.02.2012: 0550 UTC: Posn: 16:03.9N - 058:58.9E, Around 280nm ExS of Salalah, Oman, (Off Somalia).

While underway, a chemical tanker spotted 3-4 pirates in a skiff heading towards her at a speed more than 20kts. Alarm raised, evasive maneouvres made, fire pumps activated, armed security team made their presence. The skiff later stopped their approach and the chemical tanker continued her passage. A mother vessel was seen in the vicinity.

 

070-12 29.02.2012: 2110 UTC: Posn: 04:20.0N - 005:47.0E, around 5nm off Baylesa, Nigeria.

Seven to eight armed robbers in a boat chased and fired upon a chemical tanker underway. Alarm raised, crew mustered on bridge and all access to accommodation secured from inside. The robbers chased the tanker for around an hour before aborting and moving away. All crew safe. Ship sustained gun shot damages.

 

069-12 29.02.2012: 1745 LT: Posn: 21:44N - 091:37E, 12NM West of Kutubdia Island, Bangladesh.

Robbers boarded a container ship at anchor. Robbers stole ship's stores and escaped unnoticed. Master informed port authority and local agent.