Zoe 8 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Well said, AC. If things get as bad as David makes out, boating will be the least of our problems. We'll be burning our boats for firewood. There will be lots of newcomers that won't know that I started this website six or seven years ago, got it going, and gave it a huge chunk of my time for a couple of years, and I did that because the apathy and lack of communication around keelboating was to be honest, pathetic. If my life had gone a different way (I have had four kids since then) I'd like to think that by now, I'd have had a larger influence in helping to pick the sport up by its shoelaces, and maybe I still will one day. If the current setup isn't working, fix it. We still have a massive infrastructure supporting relatively few sailors... if you think that cost is the driving factor behind the sport's supposed demise, sorting that out would be a start. Another thing you can do is consider how many people are paying marina fees, for boats they don't use. Convince them to get back out there. For each boat doing, say, a weekly rum race or cruising passage, there could be six or seven people enjoying sailing as crew, and contributing to the costs of keeping the sport afloat through club membership and volunteer duties. It is completely possible but it isn't going to happen if y'all don't make it happen. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Youright, the quality and quantity of marine services available especially in the area between Auck/North Shore/Gulf Harbour is amazing. In a relatively short drive you can go past every type of marine provider you could ever need, which is vair useful to a lazy git like me who can't be bothered to do anyfink myself. Actually not only can't be bothered but haven't got a clue. I've tried boat DIY and I usually endup paying more to get someone in to fix up my mess. Quicker and less embarrassing to avoid the first step and just go straight to the experts. And usually they are. Usually. Not always though. Which is why when you find a marine person you trust hang on to them for dear life. Except for KM of course. Yer wouldn't wanna hang on to im. Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Yes sailing is an expensive sport, but probably far cheaper than Motorsport, we also save money on holidays because we don't have accommodation to fork out for. All depends where you put your money I'd much rather have a nice boat than a flash car of fancy house, the problem is nowadays we expect to have it all. Flash Carbon Kevlar sails may look good but they tend to fall to bits after a year or two, I wouldn't get Dacron for a heavier boat but good quality cruise laminate sails can last a long time and still perform well. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 Well said, AC. If things get as bad as David makes out, boating will be the least of our problems. We'll be burning our boats for firewood. Well according to Ogre we'll be burning our children to keep warm. Note to self: get some children. Anyway, on this happy sparkly sunny Monday morning I'm wondering where Ogre is getting his message of doom from? For example what is your earlier comment based, on Mr Happy? It's a fact, we are poorer than we were... See, the only stuff I can find suggests that relative to other places Auck/NZ does quite well on a general measure of standard of living e.g. http://www.mercer.com/press-releases/quality-of-living-report-2011 "Vienna has the best living standard in the world, according to the Mercer 2011 Quality of Living Survey. Zurich and Auckland follow in second and third position, respectively, and Munich is in fourth with Düsseldorf and Vancouver sharing fifth place." and http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/# "Below are the countries that win our top 10 in this year’s Quality of Life Index and the final scores for each country in every category. To produce this annual Index we consider nine categories: Cost of Living, Culture and Leisure, Economy, Environment, Freedom, Health, Infrastructure, Safety and Risk, and Climate. This involves a lot of number crunching from “official” sources, including government websites, the World Health Organization, and The Economist, to name but a few. We also take into account what our editors from all over the world have to say about our findings." 1st = France 2nd = AUS 3rd = Switzerland 4th = Germany 5th = NZ So for NZ to be getting worst we must have slipped from a mighty 1st place to a pathetic 3rd or 5th place. So when was NZ first? Or have we stayed about the same ranking but the rest of the world has got worse as well i.e. we are all going to the dogs? Link to post Share on other sites
splashprincess 17 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Yes sailing is an expensive sport, but probably far cheaper than Motorsport, we also save money on holidays because we don't have accommodation to fork out for. All depends where you put your money I'd much rather have a nice boat than a flash car of fancy house, the problem is nowadays we expect to have it all. I agree - sailing is as expensive as you want it to be and it's a matter of prioritising how you spend your discretionary dollar. You don't have overseas holidays or skiing weekends, or the latest flashest car/house because the money is spent on the boat instead. Link to post Share on other sites
tuffyluffy 76 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Purely for entertainment value I recently priced up a 13m marina berth in Sydney harbour and the cost is approximanetly twice what im paying in Auckland (if i can secure one), and out-of-the-way marinas in Queensland start at 1.5 times my Auckland fee. Then there are all the registration fees, compulsary insurance etc etc. Keelboat ownership in NZ is a bargain compared to across the ditch. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 It's knot so much the price of a basic OK to go have huge fun in boat has risen more than it's the punters who use them desire for toys and trinkets have risen. Again a simple case of wants verses needs. The needs are cheap, the wants are what is driving the apparent prices up. It's no different than anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Marina fees. Good comparison point esp given it forms one of the biggest items of expenditure post-purchase of the boat itself. Apart from rum, obviously. tuffy's covered the Aussies so I'll do my old stomping grounds in the Solent. Take one of the premier marinas in the Hamble and you'll be coughing up approx GBP650 per metre per year. These aren't the most expensive marinas in the UK but up there. So a good comparison with Westhaven, methinks. So for an average 10m yacht you're gonna spunk about GBP6,500 (approx. NZD$13,000). I'm a GH man so one of you plonkers who choses Westhaven, what do you pay for renting a 10m berth? I'm guessing mebe $6,000? Well let's work on that for now.... Doing a direct currency conversion isn't all that meangiful so let's put some perspective on it by using that globally recognised comparison benchmark i.e. a bottle of beer. UK. Bottle of Becks pub price ruffly GBP3.50. Which means at GBP6,500 my 10m marina berth on the Hamble is gonna cost me 1,857 bottles of Becks. Enough to make me cry into my beer. If I could afford one. NZ. Bottle of Becks pub price ruffly NZD$7.50. Which means that your $6,000 10m Westhaven berth (if you're that stupid) deprives you of only 800 bottles of Becks. That's still a serious problem but compared to your whinging pom ancestors on the Hamble you are paying less than half the relative price of the UK. How good is that? So that should explain why the poms got their 'whinging' title. If you spent every sailing weekend of the year shivering in your leaking Henri Lloyds oillies cursing the 1,857 bottles of Becks that your marina berth has deprived you of, well, that would make you winge about boating as well, wouldn't it? Oh, wait, you already are.... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 If you believe the peak oil doomsdayers (not a thread drift invitation!) soon we won't be able to afford to drive all over the countryside to our baches, getaway locations or even fly much. About this time wind powered recreation will make a stirling comeback in numbers and we'll be moaning about all the crowded anchorages. In the present situation methinks the issue is time. With both mum and dad working to pay off the big modern mortgage (remember when a house in the central Auckland area was $250k) there isn't the time to chip away at the boat once all the chores and kid rearing etc is done and it is perhaps tougher financially to pay someone else to do it (given that they want a preium to pay off their mortgage too). Thus boating becomes the domian of the retiree or urber rich. At present the answer to all our prayers is a production GP26 with a little more cabin space for overnighting and a wind up keel so we can truck her home at the end of the day. Yipeeeeeeeee! Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Personally, I don't think I have ever seen boats cheaper. Nor for that matter, Boat equipment. Fuel, while it is getting up there, us sailors don't use that much that it would stop us boating. Yards are expensive, but at least we have a few choices and it is not hugely cost prohibitive. The one point that has always erked me is the Marina costs. And I really don't think we should or even want to compare to overseas. The reason I say this is that this is who we are as a nation. We are into the outdoors and Boating has always been a big outdoor thing for many Kiwi's for generations. Plus at least here in Auckland, there are choices. If you can not afford a Berth then there at least some Pile moorings around and then there are the Swing moorings. A big problem with back in Marlborough was that there was no choice. You can not put in any new swing moorings, there are no Pile moorings and so you have the one option of a Berth. For ones like me, it was beyond what I could afford and beyond what many people could afford. You do get a choice though. Either pay the charge or move your boat to Nelson or Wellington. Of which both are 50% cheaper. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Well I'm off to the bank to get a big fat loan. Buy my dream boat now while it's cheap and keep it for 10 years. All I need to do is sell my current boat. A $1 reserve auction on trade me should do it You only live once so might as well enjoy it Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Marina fees. Good comparison point esp given it forms one of the biggest items of expenditure post-purchase of the boat itself. Apart from rum, obviously. tuffy's covered the Aussies so I'll do my old stomping grounds in the Solent. Take one of the premier marinas in the Hamble and you'll be coughing up approx GBP650 per metre per year. These aren't the most expensive marinas in the UK but up there. So a good comparison with Westhaven, methinks. So for an average 10m yacht you're gonna spunk about GBP6,500 (approx. NZD$13,000). I'm a GH man so one of you plonkers who choses Westhaven, what do you pay for renting a 10m berth? I'm guessing mebe $6,000? Well let's work on that for now.... Doing a direct currency conversion isn't all that meangiful so let's put some perspective on it by using that globally recognised comparison benchmark i.e. a bottle of beer. UK. Bottle of Becks pub price ruffly GBP3.50. Which means at GBP6,500 my 10m marina berth on the Hamble is gonna cost me 1,857 bottles of Becks. Enough to make me cry into my beer. If I could afford one. NZ. Bottle of Becks pub price ruffly NZD$7.50. Which means that your $6,000 10m Westhaven berth (if you're that stupid) deprives you of only 800 bottles of Becks. That's still a serious problem but compared to your whinging pom ancestors on the Hamble you are paying less than half the relative price of the UK. How good is that? So that should explain why the poms got their 'whinging' title. If you spent every sailing weekend of the year shivering in your leaking Henri Lloyds oillies cursing the 1,857 bottles of Becks that your marina berth has deprived you of, well, that would make you winge about boating as well, wouldn't it? Oh, wait, you already are.... AC, I'm not completely sure a bottle of beer is a good normaliser for currency and economy fluctuations. in Norway that bottle of beer is over 50% tax. Here in Zürich I pay about 1.17chf per bottle from the store - up to 15 chf per bottle from a pub. Needless to say, I buy my beer by the crate and drink it in the sun with my feet in the river (drinking in public is not a cardinal sin in this country I think Ogre's comment about us being poorer was not relative to other countries but rather relative to the 70s. In general, after paying for food, gas, rent and energy, we have a smaller % of out income left now than we did back then. We do still have a better deal in absolute terms than many people for keeping a keeler, but for the other countries it is definitely a rich man's thing. Still, to avoid continued thread drift, I also think boating is partly how expensive you make it, and partly how expensive it is made through legislation. As well-meaning but miss-directed environmental regulations are tightened, the cost of hauling and maintaining your boat increases to the point where most of what you pay for is compliance cost. That compliance cost is also what pushes marina fees up. Truth be told the water quality and sediment toxicity of the Waitemata would improve dramatically if the road and urban runoff was reduced or eliminated. With regard to the cost of owning a keeler, how much do the average live-aboard couple spend per month on maintenance? For many their yearly budget is not so great. KM is also on to a big thing. The basic parts for your boat are not that expensive. The sparkly and the shiny cost lots, and to have fun you often simply don't need them. Chartplotter? Compass and a leadline and a big bright torch are cheaper and more reliable than a chartplotter. Dacron sails will last longer and cost less than the racing kevlar. Mast prices cost in this order Carbon>Aluminium>Wood, and for many many years wood was used. It's cheap and floats. and can be surprisingly light. If you lose it in a blow it's not likely to take your sails and the rest of your rigging to the bottom. There are so many ways to save when fitting out your boat, normal old fashioned cleats work incredibly well, and don't have parts that wear out. You can cut a bunch out of a piece of oak, or manuka. So they don't have the slick look of a jammer? but if you learn to use them to their fullest they are pretty good. A long oar from the foredeck can make a surprisingly effective control mechanism and much cheaper and less maintenance than a bow-thruster. Yes you need a crew member on the foredeck to use it, but you normally have someone there with a line in their hand anyway... The money you save by not having the fanciest coolest lightest hi-tech gear on your boat can help you to have longer or more frequent sailing time, making you a better sailor, and possibly more likely to win races. There is a guy who sails from the same little boat yard as we sail from over here. He has a brand spanking new laser something-or-other, has a lifting keel, retracting prod, electric outboard and a lot of shiny carbon and stainless bits. On Sat he was there before us, tutooing with something. We launched and went out for about an hour, then came back in and had a picnic on the dock - he eventually launched as we were half way through our meal. Because it's heavy he needed a tractor to get into and out of the water. We followed him out about 20 min later and he headed back in after perhaps 20 more min. We sailed on for another 2h before coming back. He was still at the dock trying to work out how to get the boat back out of the water without the little tractor which was being used elsewhere (club tractor). The point is, he was so caught up with fussing over all the superfluous stuff that he has simply forgotten how to have fun. He's an experienced sailor, apparently, but God he looks worried. To be honest, he's VERY VERY freakin german, the kind my lady worries about catching german from - and she's german already! On another note, I lofted out the first bulkhead (collision bulkhead) for my new boat on Sunday... Link to post Share on other sites
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