SSB is dead, long live Satph

[Guest]

After another 2 weeks of patchy HF performance I am now 100% of the mind HF is a dead technology and only good for those with extreme patience and then only as a side amusement, very much just like a vibrator is actually.

 

I am really really struggling to see even one benefit of SSB over a Satph.

[Guest]

I concur.

 

here's another advantage - if the sh*t hit the fan and I was no longer available, my wife can pick it up and use it without needing training or license.

[Grinna 2]

I don't disagree, but ....

 

SSB radio is WWII technology. It's hissy and squealy and there's fiddling with knobs and stuff, although the later model SSB radios do make it all a lot easier.

 

Satphone is as easy as picking up a cellphone and using it. Clear, easy communication ... provided you've got satellite coverage (which is pretty good these days to be sure).

 

The major differences are the SSB is a "one to many" broadcast communication medium while satphone is "one to one" communication. There might be times when the difference is important (maybe). But the big difference to me is operating costs .... you have to buy time for satphone use, paying up front, and if your minutes expire before you use them that's just too bad. And the satellite minutes aren't that cheap either. SSB is free to use as much as you like.

 

Our boat has a late model SSB unit installed already. I'm not going to rip it out and replace it with a satphone. I'm thinking very seriously about buying a satphone to have as well as the SSB. If starting from a point where the boat has neither SSB nor satphone installed, I'd probably go satphone only to be honest.

[John B 106]

Although if you're cruising , getting the morning gossip and discussion on the local 'net' about weather and other boats in the vicinity etc is an advantage. Its 'word of mouth' radio which can bring a lot of expertise into a discussion.

[Jon 360]

As said above both have advantages

Hopefully Rodney reads this as he told me that they could have had a disaster with Beau Geste at Norfolk as a ship was turned away due to a breakdown in the chain of communication and if they had been talking to all that this may well have been avoided.

The biggest problem with SSB is usually the unit and operator don't get enough practice/uses

For me the best solution is both !

[Guest]

Mr Grinna Sir, as much as I do respect your opinions, you're wrong again ....... yet sort of right also.

 

I'd also knot rip any SSB out of your boat. I'd keep it for 100% sure but I would also get a Satph.

 

On costs I'd argue that bit with you. Lets have a quick suss of fitting a SSB against a Satph.

 

HF Set -

A good Icom US$3420.00

Stay Insulator US$320.00

Tuner US$710.00

Items middle of the range sort of thing. So potentially a HF set up would knock you US$4500 installed there abouts. This can be used to get voice, fax and interweb data. Sending stuff other than voice maybe possible, I just don't know.

 

On going running costs are low as long as you ensure you have a good electrical system to back it up which does include good charging and good battery banks. sh*t wiring and batteries = sh*t HF performance. So while there is some ongoing costs they aren't large but could be if you aren't careful.

 

Satph -

Inmarsat Pro US$595.00

External Ariel US$219.00

So installed with external ariel close as US$950.00. This can be used to get/send voice, interweb and Txts.

 

On going running costs. You can pre-pay 250mins for US$250 and they will last 720 days. So on todays rate that's NZ$1.25 per min.

 

Prices from Denfender so a good average I'd think. Pretty much the same as they are here but we know few of you want to believe that

 

So a Satph plus installing it plus 3550 minutes of calling is the same as the install cost of a HF set. Ball parking it all obviously. Assuming an average radio call to drop a position/alls well note is 1 minute. That's well over 9 years of doing that every single day before you reach the install cost of a SSB. So I'm knot to sure the 'cost' argument is that valid anymore. Sure it's there but it's nothing like what many would think I'd suggest.

 

Although if you're cruising , getting the morning gossip and discussion on the local 'net' about weather and other boats in the vicinity etc is an advantage. Its 'word of mouth' radio which can bring a lot of expertise into a discussion.

True, that is one benefit of HF I didn't think of this morning. There is also the 'if it's going tits up' the help call via HF will or should have a wider audience.

 

But for simple day to day one to one stuff HF is dead, forget it, it's sh*t. Just spent 8 days trying to raise Aussie to give them a heads up we will be there shortly call. The entire time we were chatting to Russell Radio (good team to do it with by the way), boats in Fiji, around NZ and one in Canada. Could we raise anyone in Aussie? Nope knot even a dingo. At one stage we did ring Russell and ask if Aussie still existed. About 4 days out I thought feck this and did a 'Any Aussie station can you hear me' call. The only response was from Hobart and as VMR, the station Aussie Customs said we had to talk too, was in Qld they couldn't pass any message along. 2 days out we got some station 100's of miles inland but reception was total crap. In the end we finally raised the required VMR only 29 miles off the Aussie coast and using the 4meg band of all things, VHF couldn't do it. The VMR building is another 50mts inland. We had cell phone reception before we could raise a Aussie station on HF, it was fecking ridiculous.

 

One NZ$1.25 Satph call and none of that sh*t would needed to have happened. Nor the potential stress of being locked up by anal Aussie officialdom. As it panned out the Aussie Customs lady was 100% magnificent and as we had left a trail of 'trying hard to contact someone', it was easy to show we tried very hard to comply.

 

Last night I ordered a Satph.

[Fogg 427]

Although if you're cruising , getting the morning gossip and discussion on the local 'net' about weather and other boats in the vicinity etc is an advantage. Its 'word of mouth' radio which can bring a lot of expertise into a discussion.

 

Not really applicable in this part of the world but the other benefit I am told from cruisers who have sailed through pirate waters is that SSB is impossible to scan in the same way as VHF. So cruisers who are following the usual advice about stealth mode (sailing at night, no lights, part of a small group etc) agree on a frequency beforehand and use SSB even for short distance comms - because unlike VHF pirates are highly unlikely to stumble across them chatting.

[tuffyluffy 76]

All pros and cons asside, you wont be going anywhere offshore without Cat 1 and like it or not, i thought a SSB was compulsory? Or has that changed?

[Grinna 2]

KM, you're not necessarily comparing apples and apples.

 

You're talking installation costs + running costs for SSB vs Satphone .... so starting from a point where you've got neither installed on your boat. Yes, SSB is going to be hella costly from that starting point. But if we're talking about buying a boat that has had Cat 1 or is in a "Cat 1 ready" state you'll probably already have SSB so the install costs are buried in your purchase price.

 

Like I say, I don't disagree with you about the satphone seriously threatening the need for SSB and if starting from scratch I'd probably be going satphone over SSB ..... but I'm not starting from scratch and I can see some utility in having and using the SSB. I can also see the big advantages of the satphone in some areas and would in all probability have one as well.

 

One advantage of the satphone that hasn't been mentioned yet is that its much more portable than an SSB unit .... which means you can take it with you when you step up into your liferaft .... can't see too many SSB set ups allowing that.

 

The other point KM is that all of the failure and frustration you describe with SSB is not a failure of the radio unit, installation or system as such, its a failure of the correct Aussie authority to be adequately communicable with you. Clearly you were communicating to Uncle Tom Cobbley and all on the SSB .... the plonkers who should have been monitoring in Aussie were not doing so or their system was not capable of doing so.

 

BTW, its possible to send and receive simple text emails via SSB so that's another angle you could potentially have tried.

[Guest]

Cruising Cat 1 Sat phone ok

Racing Cat 1 depends on the NOR, but most NZ races allow either.

Aust Cat 1 still needs SSB

[Guest]

Absolutely right there Grinna, I am talking from scratch as I do have to do that shortly. If you have a SSB already installed hell yes keep and use it, you'd be silly knot to as they aren't evil and are handy for group chats as mentioned above and heard over the last few weeks.

 

Yes the Aussies have issues, something we did mention, nicely, and they did acknowledge, quietly A lot of that we suspect was just timing as when the best propagation times were on the Aussies had closed shop and gone home for the day, they don't have any 24hr monitoring anymore. But being fair here we were mid Queensland and chatted to Hobart clear as a very clear thing, as we did with other boats around the Sth Pacific. So I can't say SSB was crap all the time, most of the time it was OK to good. The major hassle we had was contacting the mob we were told by by a know anal Aussie Govt. Interestingly Aussie Customs used to run their own system but due to budget cuts now say contact VMR Bundy. VMR being 'Voluntary Marine Rescue', note the 'Voluntary'. That is suspected to have some input.

 

I just think that if you are starting from scratch or do have a real mission critical situation a Satph is now a far better option than a SSB. Like in the race/s I want to do no bloody way will I fit a SSB now, I really can't see any benefit for either me or the intended use of the communication it is required for. In fact I'm thinking fitting a SSB is close as damn it false security, maybe dangerously so.

[Grinna 2]

Pretty much on the same page there KM. In terms of scheduled communication with known agencies, random communication with specific bods, email downloads, weather chart downloads, portability, ease of use, initial cost, etc, etc a satphone pretty much poos all over the SSB.

 

As the technology improves and the popularity increases, the costs of satphone units and airtime will probably continue to fall. I haven't bought one yet, but I think we probably will be buying a satphone before any significant coastal adventures and almost certainly before any offshore adventures.

[idlerboat 116]

Secondhand Codan marine $400

New automatic tuner $275 !

Ceramic Insulators for long wire $2. (for both)

Stainless 4mm wire, thimbles and swages...$18.

Two 3.5 mm philips plugs and a bit of twin core wire..left overs..

Weather fax software...free.

 

Knowing this web site and how to use it...

http://www.ips.gov.au/Main.php?CatID=6& ... fax%20HAPs

 

PRICELESS[/size]

[Guest]

As the technology improves and the popularity increases, the costs of satphone units and airtime will probably continue to fall. I haven't bought one yet, but I think we probably will be buying a satphone before any significant coastal adventures and almost certainly before any offshore adventures.

The calling rates could do with some work and they will as more Sats get chucked up there I'm sure. The handset is less than a iPhone is, or at least the Inmarsat Pro I went for.

 

The Iridium are probably better in a few ways, especially data speeds, but man oh man you'll bleed from the arse with their calling rates. Inmarsat rates are far better for the casual user. I'm also told with the Inmarsat satellites being geo-stationary they are less prone to random drop-outs. Iridium use low earth orbiting ones so while a lot faster the signal can have to swap satellites a lot during a longer call.

 

That's an interesting site idler. Must suss that further tonight I think.

[Grinna 2]

How does the general coverage compare between the Inmarsat and the Iridium systems?

 

I vaguely recall talk of holes in reception for one of the systems (I think it might have been Inmarsat) particularly in the South Pacific area ... but I might very well be wrong (or out of date) on that.

[wheels 543]

A good Icom US$3420.00

You should be able to get a new Icom 78HF SSB set in NZ for around the $1400 mark. That includes a built in tuner.

But I agree 100%, even if I had an SSB (actually I do, but not installed) I would still take a Satph now days. Far far more reliable. I said to KM the exact same thing as Grinna, it's WW2 technology and was basically the next step from Morse code. Because of the very nature of how high power AM transmission works, is also what makes it so unreliable for transmission. As KM found, they could talk clear as day to people thousands of miles away and yet not get anyone only 100 miles away. Plus in their situation, one battery had a bad cell. AM, or amplitude modulation, relies very importantly on a good supply voltage and that voltage must remain stable while transmitting to ensure the power output remains at the max. Plus in some circumstances, altering Amplitude can also affect the "bounce angle" of a transmission. The signal bounces off the Ionosphere, but the Ionosphere is not a solid flat reflective plate up there. It is rather "fuzzy" you could say, to a signal. If the signal varies, it also varies at where in the Ionosphere it actually reflects. The other point and probably the most important performance point of all, is the strength of the Ionosphere itself. And that has the greatest fluctuation during Solar Activity, which of course we are going through right now. That also causes the reflecting angle to alter and alter most dramatically and sometimes stopping the ability to transmit anything at all.

[Guest]

I don't disagree, but ....

 

SSB radio is WWII technology. It's hissy and squealy and there's fiddling with knobs and stuff, although the later model SSB radios do make it all a lot easier.

 

Satphone is as easy as picking up a cellphone and using it. Clear, easy communication ... provided you've got satellite coverage (which is pretty good these days to be sure).

 

Weeell... if the ionosphere is up and running so good that HF allows you to stand on the roof and yell "State Side".... then it means some gigantic solar flare has headed our way and energised the entire upper layers..... the same flare who's electromagnetic energy has just annihilated all the satellites!!

[Guest]

How does the general coverage compare between the Inmarsat and the Iridium systems?

 

I vaguely recall talk of holes in reception for one of the systems (I think it might have been Inmarsat) particularly in the South Pacific area ... but I might very well be wrong (or out of date) on that.

I'm told Iridium is often the best as it uses lots of LEO satellites where Inmarsat only has the 3. Sounds like both systems do have good coverage unless you are pushing real high Lats where both can start to struggle.

[rigger 47]

How does the general coverage compare between the Inmarsat and the Iridium systems?

 

I vaguely recall talk of holes in reception for one of the systems (I think it might have been Inmarsat) particularly in the South Pacific area ... but I might very well be wrong (or out of date) on that.

I'm told Iridium is often the best as it uses lots of LEO satellites where Inmarsat only has the 3. Sounds like both systems do have good coverage unless you are pushing real high Lats where both can start to struggle.

 

From experience (a few years old) Inmarsat used "Spotbeam" coverage for some types of their phones, there were areas where we had very poor to no coverage, iridium on the other hand we never hand any problems with. GEO Sats versus LEO Sats

[idlerboat 116]

...all the major players have coverage maps on their web sites. Some are deffinately not global.

Here is Thuraya,s coverage which is now quite extensive.

http://www.thuraya.com/coverage-map

 

$600 will get you a new phone and as little as around $120 pre paid will get you started. Biggest problem with pre paid is the limited time you have to use your bought minutes. (Bit like phone prepaid in the bad old days). You cant take HF with you into the life raft.

Would I like one to keep ?...Sure, but only "for occasional and emergency use".

 

Marine HF uses upper side band (except for the now no longer monitored emergency frequency of 2182)

Expensive sets also have DSC like the newer VHF sets.

Some services can only be accessed through DSC.

 

About 2/3rds of "sail nets" use Ham frequencys, and for those you need both a ham licence and suitable set.

 

A large part of succsessful HF operation is propagation prediction. The frequency chosen changes constantly across the day and radicaly after sunlight no longer hits the ionosphere. Luckily, there is prediction services available for free......and they work.

One of the pages common to weather fax broadcasts is the next weeks predictions. You download before you go, and because you have it, you can then download as you sail, constantly updating the predictions as you journey. Of course any close frequency to these weather fax predictions will also work for Vox.

 

So...?...I would recomend HF for weather and ship to ship or ship to sailnet communication.

 

And Sat for "other"....unless you are so rich that you can afford the "double bubble" syndrome....in which case you might as well just hop in an areoplane and get to your hotel quicker..