TimB 7 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 A catamaran will normally run pretty straight, however it gets hairy and scary quick if you let it get sideways. Boards up and a tiny bit of headsail sheeted centred helps to keep straight, then go warp and drogues.. Most cruising cats have lots of buoyancy forward, to provide room inside..... Tb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Agreed TimB, but that cat has keels, no boards IIRC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 For someone used to a raked bow I imagine the Lagoon would look close to the edge but I don't think it was. It is a 50ft plus boat with plumb bows. The waves weren't big enough to lift the stern much and the speeds in the glimpses of the nav gear weren't very high. Our boat (not a multihull) with plumb bow has water over the front pretty much constantly once we get over about 13 knots, even in flat water. bow water (Medium).JPG max speed was over 27 knots. Do you not think that is sufficient to cause an issue? It wont slip sideways well, with the stub keels. If it does round up for whatever reason, they are in trouble. IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Dipping the bows can lead to disaster but I have read that the lagoon has a huge amount of reserve buoyancy in the bridge deck area to counter pitch poles? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 I would have thought that by the time the bows dig in, and the bridge deck hits the water, effectively stopping the yacht, the energy has to go somewhere, and its too late to prevent a capsize.... Reserve buoyancy in the bow is the only solution, short of reducing sail earlier? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 max speed was over 27 knots. Do you not think that is sufficient to cause an issue? It wont slip sideways well, with the stub keels. If it does round up for whatever reason, they are in trouble. IMO. Ha missed the 27 knots only saw high teens when I first looked. I still don't think there was any risk of broaching as long as the boat is going faster than the waves steering will be well controlled, it's when the waves overtake the boat that the sh*t starts to happen in my experience. I don't think the seaway they were in warranted anything to be concerned about. I have have sailed a C36 through cook straight in 50+ knots, double reefed main only with no drama at all never even looked like broaching. I couldn't see the waves very well because it was dark but our top speed was over 14 knots, on a 8 tonne IOR design that means freakin huge waves. Even with a kite up in 30 knots we had never been over 10 knots before. Speed is good up until it isn't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 OR, you come off a steep one, bury the bow in the next, and the following breaker turns you sideways.... but yes, that sea state was not fully developed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 375 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 27 knots in a lagoon? WTF? Really? Awwweeesssome Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 The 27 knots was probably an instant when a pitch or roll movement combined with the boat speed of maybe 16 or 18 kts I think they have a nacelle almost like a third hull that is just above the water under the bridge deck and that helps to lift the bows. Pitch poling happened a bit in the Queensland races where light multis were moving weight fwd to promote surfing while running with spinnakers. When the bows stopped the masthead kept going and over they went. Think thats what happened to catabatic near channel island. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freedom GBE 27 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 The crew knew how to sail this boat. They were pushing the boat on purpose. So long as your sails are ballanced. Downwind reef the main down a lot and sail to the headsail, dont put the sails in self tailers. Sailing similar speeds to the waves down wind is very comfortable. Perfect weather for cats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Really? From what I saw they had no headsail, and 2 reefs in the main... in 50 knots. I freely admit to not having much heavy weather experience in cats, but I would have had the main off her, and a small headsail, to keep the centre of effort forward. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Yes I definitely wouldn’t have any main up in strong downwind conditions, the main wants to push the boat around plus there is the danger of a crash gybe, a little bit of headsail is much easier steering and safer pulling the boat from the front not pushing , plus easier to get rid of if you need to. I was sailing Tl systems solo to barrier when the sw picked up to around 25 to 30 and my boat speed was 23 kts, I took the opportunity in the shelter behind little barrier to round up and drop the main altogether and carried on at a relaxed 12 knots with the furling Genoa knowing that I would easily be able to slow down coming into Fitzroy. With the main up I was nervously waiting for something to break and dropping it took all the strain of me and the boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Perhaps it is worth mentioning that waves dont always come in nice straight lines.... ..at 27 knots boat speed even if you are out pacing the predominate sets, it only takes one random double up or cross set to upset everything.....The acceleration goes through the roof and you are now in real danger of pitchpoling/broaching as the down most hull digs in and steering is momentarily lost as the water speed and boat speed match... Its hard to get proper context from videos , ..perhaps the sea state wasnt that bad for what is a reasonably large boat.. I personally would rather slow down than speed up as the conditions get worse. Less load on the boat and more time to react if things .....go sideways ! ps..having the motor(s) running so that you can put a sudden blast of water across the rudder(s) to correct a situation can help... and as long as the boat is done up tight, trawlers in big seas or crossing bars will sometimes "brick"...that is, throw the engine astern and give it heaps just for a second as a big wave comes through. This (with skill) can lessen the chances of taking off and surfing down a wave. "Dodging" or sometimes "joggling" is holding the bow to the sea with the engine(s) at about 10 to 15 degrees off...There is a stunning picture on page 131 of Adlard Coles, "heavy weather sailing"... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 329 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 I don't think it had any sail up. Instrument shots showed 50 knots & 10-13 knot boat speed. Wind about 170 apparent. Even that block of flats would probably have been doing 10-12 with no sail up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 Owners comments on the YouTube post “ started with 2 reefs in main and jib, later rolled away jib, the deep reef was not necessary “ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 698 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 The big question for me is,why leave port when you know you are going to have 50knts?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 329 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Owners comments on the YouTube post “ started with 2 reefs in main and jib, later rolled away jib, the deep reef was not necessary “ Haha! Ok so that shows how well they sail then, 50 knots, deep reefed mail & 10-13 knots! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,776 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Still don't think that first skipper was doing a good job. The main should have been dropped and an appropriate amount of headsail rolled out. How much would be the skippers decision, but I would like to know the skipper was competent to make that call. That way little or no danger of rounding up, even if the steering cable broke. The way he was sailing it would have had me on edge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Yep cruising cats do go over. Sometime ago while in Nelson one went over I think not far from the port. I don’t know why but possibly a sudden gust of wind. I have also just read about that Piver going over after the Transtasman - that was in very benign conditions apparently. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Both vids scared the hell out of me, but the first one just looked like they were asking for trouble. Those bows didn't look like they had much reserve volume left, but I don't know much about cats. The second vid looked more under control but some of those waves!!!! I wouldn't be out there on purpose! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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