Life Jackets

[grantmc 59]

Just wondering what others think about life jackets. I know it’s been knocked around here over the years, but is there still reluctance for compulsory wearing of jackets?

 

I raised the topic at my rag n stick club a year ago at the annual Safety meeting. Every week I see many crews going round the cans without jackets and we’ve had the odd incident including m/wobs. As a Club I felt we should set an example, but the proposal was knocked down very quickly and I was left wondering why.

 

The rules too as to what exactly a life jacket is and the (optional) features included make what seems to me no sense. For example crotch straps, light, mouth/splash cover, whistle etc.

 

So is it time for a law change? Should sailing/boating clubs include rules for compulsory wearing (especially when racing)? What do you think?

[Clive 13]

"So is it time for a law change?"

 

No thank-you

 

[Black Panther 1,581]

I have them on board, I'll never stop someone wearing one, I expect someone to wear one if I tell them to (I am the skipper). What else is necessary?

[Clipper 343]

Should sailing/boating clubs include rules for compulsory wearing (especially when racing)? What do you think?[/font][/size]

In many races, such as soloiq or Ssanz races they are compulsory, at least for multis with no lifelines anyway.

 

Hell no to a law change, in 5 knots and sun, no way in hell in putting one on, unless in above races

[Black Panther 1,581]

http://www.sailfeed.com/2015/10/to-wear-or-not-to-wear-thats-the-question/

[John B 106]

One of the more refreshing things I've read recently is Jimmy Cornell's take on it . Someone might have a link. I forget where I read it.

The last thing we need is more jumped up power crazy enforcers.

[Fish 0]

 

Every week I see many crews going round the cans without jackets and we’ve had the odd incident including m/wobs.

 

 

 

So is it time for a law change? 

 

What benefits do you see from a law change?

I'm interested in your perception as to why life jackets are so important, and what is wrong with crews in inshore waters (i.e. going around the cans) without life jackets on.

 

There are a number of situations where wearing a lifejacket increases risks and hazards. Life jackets are only of benefit if you are in the water, but do not address any aspects of not going into the water. They can increase tripping hazards (by obstructing a view of your feet) and can be cumbersome to move around in quickly.

 

I believe the biggest risk to individuals, and this applies to health and safety in industry as much as recreational sailors, is the removal of the requirement to think for yourself, assess hazards as they arise and take appropriate mitigating measures. the compulsory wearing of anything (hard hats, hi-viz, life jackets, safety glasses) removes any need to assess a situation and respond to hazards.

 

That is a very very dangerous situation to create. Refer the law of unintended consequences.

[grant 40]

What benefits do you see from a law change?

I'm interested in your perception as to why life jackets are so important, and what is wrong with crews in inshore waters (i.e. going around the cans) without life jackets on.

 

There are a number of situations where wearing a lifejacket increases risks and hazards. Life jackets are only of benefit if you are in the water, but do not address any aspects of not going into the water. They can increase tripping hazards (by obstructing a view of your feet) and can be cumbersome to move around in quickly.

 

I believe the biggest risk to individuals, and this applies to health and safety in industry as much as recreational sailors, is the removal of the requirement to think for yourself, assess hazards as they arise and take appropriate mitigating measures. the compulsory wearing of anything (hard hats, hi-viz, life jackets, safety glasses) removes any need to assess a situation and respond to hazards.

 

That is a very very dangerous situation to create. Refer the law of unintended consequences.

 

I'm sure there are a few yachties that can't see their feet without wearing a lifejacket, should they not be allowed to sail as they are a hazard to themselves?

 

I think with the range of jackets available now we should be able to move past the "too clumbersome" argument as well.

 

Why are lifejackets important? Because in the 'round the cans' situation if someone ends up in the water they probably weren't planning on it and especially for those sailing in places further south, the shock of going into cold water, full dressed can distract you somewhat from the important business of keeping head above the water.

 

I'm not advocating for compulsory wearing, however anytime the subject comes up I think some of the "anti-wearing" supporters are leading with outdated arguments that don't always hold water . (that's general comment and not having a go at Fish)

 

and I agree about unintended consequences being a right pain to deal with.

[Fish 0]

I'm sure there are a few yachties that can't see their feet without wearing lifejacket, 

Classic!

So I wear an inflatable jacket with crotch straps, knife, spray hood, and also carry a PLB on my person.

On occasion, the crotch strap can catch on the winches as I step over them to get out of the cockpit and move up the side deck. I'm not talking about bulky foam lifejackets here. The point is that mandatory use of a safety item (lifejacket) doesn't mean improved safety. It is obviously intended to improve safety, but doesn't actually mean it will, and doesn't mean that other hazards aren't introduced due to that safety item.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully support wearing lifejackets, but in appropriate situations. I always wear mine while two handed racing (don't trust the owner to be able to pick me up again). A law is a cumbersome tool and cannot identify or define 'appropriate' situations.

 

In this context, a law can do more harm than good, as people believe they are safe, as they are complying with all laws by wearing a lifejacket, but go out in a 12 foot tiny into a 40 knot sou-wester with 5 guys on board. That is unfortunately a common scenario. All the life jacket does is assist with body recovery. 

[grant 40]

Classic!

So I wear an inflatable jacket with crotch straps, knife, spray hood, and also carry a PLB on my person.

On occasion, the crotch strap can catch on the winches as I step over them to get out of the cockpit and move up the side deck. I'm not talking about bulky foam lifejackets here. The point is that mandatory use of a safety item (lifejacket) doesn't mean improved safety. It is obviously intended to improve safety, but doesn't actually mean it will, and doesn't mean that other hazards aren't introduced due to that safety item.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully support wearing lifejackets, but in appropriate situations. I always wear mine while two handed racing (don't trust the owner to be able to pick me up again). A law is a cumbersome tool and cannot identify or define 'appropriate' situations.

 

In this context, a law can do more harm than good, as people believe they are safe, as they are complying with all laws by wearing a lifejacket, but go out in a 12 foot tiny into a 40 knot sou-wester with 5 guys on board. That is unfortunately a common scenario. All the life jacket does is assist with body recovery. 

 

yep, that I agree with entrily

[Black Panther 1,581]

Knowing I was sailing in cold water would affect my decision whether or not to tell the crew to don a lifejacket. No need for a law.

Also I think the stats are misleading. If you break them down you'll see that drownings off sailboats over (i think ) 25 ft are pretty rare.

[MarkMT 68]

Completely opposed to laws about this. If clubs and classes have concerns, that's what SI's are for.

[Kevin McCready 83]

Dunno how many of you have slipped on a wet deck "going round the cans". I have. Now I wear a PFD (with a crotch strap).

They're much more comfortable than in the past, so less excuse not to wear them. I insist on my guests wearing them in the dinghy too when we row out to the boat.

I saw the Swedish 49er teams practising at Okahu Bay the other day, and apart from leaving their trolleys blocking the public ramp, there was at least one with a helmet on. Good.

Get with the times. Some of the comments here remind me of people resisting the introduction of seat belts in cars.

And the suicidal guy in the sailfeed link? What can I say? This. http://kmccready.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/lifejackets-lifejackets-and-sissies/

[Black Panther 1,581]

If I was sailing a 49er I would wear a lifejacket, and maybe a helmet if it were warranted (never sailed a 49er so don't know). But on my boat I have never worn one, possibly never will. I do not consider myself unsafe. Just sensible.

[Clive 13]

If I was sailing a 49er I would wear a lifejacket, and maybe a helmet if it were warranted (never sailed a 49er so don't know). But on my boat I have never worn one, possibly never will. I do not consider myself unsafe. Just sensible.

 

I wouldn't.

I like to be able to swim out of a situation - if you have been caught under a boat you'll understand why. 

[Fish 0]

Dunno how many of you have slipped on a wet deck "going round the cans". I have. ]

That's what life lines are for. And toe rails. Sounds like you would have been better off with appropriate footwear, which would have more effectively addressed the risk of slipping than the life jacket.

 

There is no parallel between seat belt laws and a law for cumpulsory wearing of life jackets.

Can you state the benefit of a compulsory life jacket law?

 

Will it reduce hospital admissions?

Will it reduce severity of injuries from motor vehicle crashes?

Will it improve cancer survival rates?

Will it reduce domestic violence?

Will it improve human rights?

Will it improve economic growth?

Will it improve the tax take?

 

Of all the things our law makers and public servants could spend their time on, a law for compulsory wearing of life jackets doesn't appear to be a priority.

 

Laws like this distract our government from addressing issues of real importance. Think small government.

 

Can anyone, including the original poster, describe the benefits of a compulsory law for wearing life jackets? (Which is different from the benefits of wearing life jackets)

[Guest 000]

There is a variety of opinions expressed here, but the commonality throughout is that to wear or not to wear comes down to the common sense of the individual or skipper.

And this is where in my opinion it is best left.

Unfortunately, NZ is not without its fair share of morons - someone referred earlier in this thread to a bunch of blokes without lifejackets in an overloaded tinny heading out for a fish in a freshening sou'wester.

Also unfortunately, our lawmakers pitch their laws to the lowest common denominator. Laws around safety are generally enacted to try and protect the well being of idiots, and I fear that we are all going to suffer for it.

[armchairadmiral 411]

This correspondence clearly outlines the two positions. One side wants to dictate to the other which wants to use their brains.A lot of people who die in water don't drown.It's  exposure that does the damage  and all the lifejacket does  means it's easy to find the body. As others said  lifejackets are not a panacea to all  situations at sea and sometimes exacerbate a  situation (getting out from under for example).The pointy heads, know alls and do gooders should mind their own business ,wear their lifejackets and leave the rest of us alone. But as Regional Councils etc need to justfy their existence expect constant attack on our personal freedoms and the fees  and fines they will try to generate and lifejackets are a starting point.

[Black Panther 1,581]

BTW, were I sailing regularly in cold water I would choose a float coat as worn in the PNW over the "standard" lifejacket by a country mile.

[AJ Oliver 154]

From KMM - "But I will and do wear a serious lifejacket, and insist others do as well, when the situation dictates it." 

 

What happens repeatedly is that even experienced sailors become pre-occupied & busy when conditions go bad, and forget to don PFD's. 

 

Full disclosure - Have to admit I have done it myself. 

 

Sorry I cannot give you examples from NZ, but that is what happened in recent US races in Mobile Bay, and twice in Lake Erie.