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1 hour ago, Black Panther said:

Realistically few if any of these boats/crew are up to a non stop passage from Tahiti to Europe via the Horn. That would be carnage. Most of them wouldn't have the range to sail back to Panama.  Can't  go north, can't go south,  cant stay put. 

What would you have done?

I think the next thing to happen will be a boat arriving and bypassing customs. 

I'd probably tell customs I'm entering NZ and come on in, on the basis you'd be treated fairly reasonably, and your human rights would be upheld I.e. not shot at, not detained in disease ridden crowded detention centres, and there is a reasonable chance of using the legal system to "get off", compared to a lot of other places.

I dont really have a problem with these duetch turning up. The bit I am surprised about is people  complaining when  they get deported, I.e. safely returned to their home country. 

I dont think that us a bad outcome... could be locked in a Panamanian jail with the drug dealers and desperados or nicely treated and sent ho e from NZ.

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5 hours ago, twisty said:

It's interesting that on this site there is a lot of sympathy for cruisers from the islands. On SA I don't see much sympathy for them.

Most there are not cruisers, and dont understand offshore cruising or ocean voyaging in average boats...

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36 minutes ago, Island Time said:

Most there are not cruisers, and dont understand offshore cruising or ocean voyaging in average boats...

Most there think it is perfectly normal to pull a gun on anyone with a funny ascent...

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6 hours ago, Black Panther said:

Realistically few if any of these boats/crew are up to a non stop passage from Tahiti to Europe via the Horn. That would be carnage. Most of them wouldn't have the range to sail back to Panama.  Can't  go north, can't go south,  cant stay put. 

What would you have done?

I think the next thing to happen will be a boat arriving and bypassing customs. 

I don't see how they would be 'stuck' in Tahiti? With a Carte de Seyjour, they could easily sail to Nuka Hiva or sail to the eastern Tuamotu for hurricane season, or even Hawaii to the north.

The issue (in the case of New Zealand) is not about safety and quarantine. It is about fairness to everyone. There are thousands of people who want to enter New Zealand. Some of them held valid entry visas, some are actually family (foreign wives and husbands) of kiwi citizens who are refused entry. It would seem unjust to allow a foreigner in only because they arrived by boat. As my shipmate has said....Allot of the complaints seem like calling Waaa! All these boats have the opportunity to Sail north or East out of the cyclone zone. In this case the Germans had been in Taiohae Bay. This is an excellent place to live out the cyclone season. I lived there aboard my sailboat for 10 months. The whiners are the people who are self centered and don’t want to be flexible. I’m not where I want to be right now and I sure as hell am not going to sail forth and push myself through borders. There seems to be two camps emerging. 1. Those who respect other countries’ laws and cultures and 2. Those who want to do whatever serves them.

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I can see boats being stuck in that area. Can't go to Hawaii at this time of year, its their cyclone season, and unless you are a US citizen or have a valid B1/B2 visa (for which you have to be in your own country to apply, and may have to have an interview) .

Although Cyclones are rare in Tahiti, or any part of French Polynesia, they do happen. (Nov-March) Going north at this time of year is not a great idea either, but can be done in 6-8 weeks if you are lucky. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Island Time said:

Although Cyclones are rare in Tahiti, or any part of French Polynesia, they do happen. 

 

The Germans were on Nuka-Hiva, chances of a hurricane there are nil. It's more likely to see allot more wind trying to get to New Zealand!

And the Eastern Tuamotu are almost nearly as hurricane free. You can get hull insurance in both places during hurricane season. The actuary tables on this sort of thing bear out the conclusion that these areas of FP are as safe places to be.

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3 hours ago, 2flit said:

I don't see how they would be 'stuck' in Tahiti? With a Carte de Seyjour, they could easily sail to Nuka Hiva or sail to the eastern Tuamotu for hurricane season, or even Hawaii to the north.

All one jurisdiction.  If their time was up they have to leave 

The issue (in the case of New Zealand) is not about safety and quarantine. It is about fairness to everyone. There are thousands of people who want to enter New Zealand. Some of them held valid entry visas, some are actually family (foreign wives and husbands) of kiwi citizens who are refused entry. It would seem unjust to allow a foreigner in only because they arrived by boat. As my shipmate has said....Allot of the complaints seem like calling Waaa! All these boats have the opportunity to Sail north or East out of the cyclone zone.

No, wrong. North isxinto the northern hemisphere hurricane zone, that season still hasn't ended . And if they went north what country? Canada closed. USA technically open but you would need a B1B2 visa which is not always possible and can take years. In fact I think you have to appear at a us consular office in person- is there one in French Polynesia?.

East is back to Panama which would be out of range for most boats.

In this case the Germans had been in Taiohae Bay. This is an excellent place to live out the cyclone season.

If their visas hadnt expired 

 

I lived there aboard my sailboat for 10 months. The whiners are the people who are self centered and don’t want to be flexible.

Have you met them?

 

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The official report mentioned that the Germans were in "unfortunate circumstances". So they been kicked out of NZ, may never be allowed to return, and had their boat confiscated, probably to be sold by customs, and they may receive none of the proceeds.  Seems pretty harsh to me.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Black Panther said:

 

Yes, The USA has a consulate in Papeete that is open. (This is actually where the Germans left from)

Sorry but departing north from Tahiti is a recommended time..... October-December Tahiti to Hawaii is a recommended time in "World Cruising Routes"

 

 

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2 hours ago, ex Elly said:

The official report mentioned that the Germans were in "unfortunate circumstances". So they been kicked out of NZ, may never be allowed to return, and had their boat confiscated, probably to be sold by customs, and they may receive none of the proceeds.  Seems pretty harsh to me.

 

 

The key word there is may. There are very few actual details associated with this story. It is not entirely clear what happened and what is going on now.

The previous statement from the govt stated cruisers risked having their boats confiscated. This is substantially different to shall or will

I don't get the impression this boat just turned up cause they felt like it. It sounds like they had no other options, or getting deported from NZ is the best of a bunch of bad options. And I do agree that if they were in "unfortunate circumstances" getting your boat confiscated would be very harsh.

But I would like to know some actual details. I wouldn't be surprised if the boat is detained for a long time, they have to jump through lots of legal hoops and muck around for 12 or 24 months, and they either get it back or are allowed to sell it privately, or something. I'd far prefer to be dealing with an NZ bureaucracy / justice system on this than the US Coast Guard, or some quality Central American country, or even the French to be honest.

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I've just re-read the original Herald story, don't normally read the Herald, and have questions around their level of accurate reporting. but:

It doesn't say they were deported. It says they were denied entry, and INZ were "arranging for them to be flown home on the next available flight".

There is a lot of tough sounding language for the INZ guy, but it is all "may", "risk" etc, not, "we have seized their boat and deported their sorry arses..."

Now, what happens if foreign crew level a foreign boat in an NZ Port? as in to fly home, quite the job etc. To get from the port to the airport, do they have to get a visa, clear customs, get a taxi to the airport and clear back out through customs?

Or is there some sort of waiver for foreign sailors to go from the port to the airport? Some sort of established international protocol? What I'm thinking here is the crew were 'denied entry into NZ, on a 6 month visitor visa, they were allowed to pass through NZ under strict controls to get a flight home'. But with an election on, the INZ guy is tasked with making it sound like he broke their arses, so as to not look soft in the media (and perhaps not to encourage others).

This way, cruisers could safely leave their boats in NZ, get a flight home and not impact on the whole "our borders are closed, you can't come and stay here" govt messaging.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?objectid=12368207&utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=nzh_fb&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0RT-wAuSNtQVyHeIQmdcqR7RGaByR3u1e8W3aFQUQ7058dijGxZk5Yous#Echobox=1601099799

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8 hours ago, Black Panther said:

In October covid didnt exist.

Or are you saying they should go there now? Then they would need a b1b2 visa. This can take years. I know this. It also requires quite a bit of money. ( first time i got one in 1980 it was $10,000. )

No... I am saying that they could have gone three separate ways to avoid the risk of hurricanes. 

They are Germans this means they are EU citizens. As an EU citizen, you are allowed to stay in French Polynesia and are allowed to renew this for quiet some time. Given this status:

  1. They could have stayed put on Nuka Hiva thru all of this. Which is exactly what we are doing here in New Zealand. We had planed to go to Fiji this season but decided that it was inappropriate to leave here and expect to have a hurricane refuge in some other country.
  2. They could have sailed south to the eastern Tuamotu where There have been no recorded cyclones in the Tuamotus in a La Nina year.  and the eastern end of the archipelago is basically hurricane free at all times. While it can get windy, there are an almost unlimited spots to anchor in the Lee of the Motus.
  3. They could have had the option of refueling and re-provisioning here and departing west I suppose they are pushing that way anyways?

By mentioning Hawaii, I was only disagreeing with your statement that you can't sail there because of Hurricanes, and I pointed out that "World Cruising Routes" lists the Oct-Dec time period as a most desirable time to make this transit. Waiting until November is very practical. According to Noonsite Hawaii is open at this time but I have no idea of any other visa status that these two men and a woman from Germany may have. They do have all the options above.

I still wish to reiterate that I too wished and had hoped that New Zealand would open it's borders to cruisers, but out of fairness to all the gov chose not to. This is very understandable, it is justified, and reasonable.

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6 hours ago, Sabre said:

 

"That would be sailing around Cape Horn. I'm sorry but that's not a response. There are some yachts that did have the ability to leave their boat in a marina or boat yard and fly home over the last few months. However, the marinas and the boat yards are now full.

"The issue is that there are more boats than there are facilities because normally they go to New Zealand and Australia for the cyclone season. It's just not practical to send boats home."

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018765969/nz-rejecting-pacific-yachts-in-cyclone-season-ludicrous-ocean-cruising-club-boss

The argument that it is not fair to let these guys in doesn't stack up. Totally different circumstances to those flying in.

These guys are the epitome of self sufficient and can complete their quarantine more or less independently. The resources required for managing this is minimal.  

They could of been arriving on a staggered timeframe to simplify it further. NZ could have and should have behaved like a sensible, rational and responsible international citizen.

The comment by the DG of health that the yachts can come if there is a cyclone proves he has no comprehension of the situation.

So what you are saying here, in short, is the "humanitarian" issue is where to park the boat? There are areas in the FP territory that don't get cyclones - Eastern Taumuto's, so is the issue really the French not extending visas?

It sounds like these three deutch will have a safe park for their boat, be flown home, be asked to cover their costs (flights) and be allowed to sell their boat and keep the proceeds, or possibly pay to park it for a long time, and maybe come back and get it, albeit with a bit of bureaucracy to deal with.

Paradoxically, I think the situation is about fairness - to those that couldn't get into NZ to see dieing parents, attend funerals, say their good bye's etc. There is no way to manage the arrival of 300 boats. You can't schedule them like planes. How much space has the Opua Q dock got, 20 boats? maybe 30 max?

I'm simply not seeing a humanitarian issue, other than the French kicking people out. Or is the problem that FP is hellishly expensive, and staying up there for 6 months would kill the kitty?

Yes, it would be nice to let them all in. It would also be nice to have the kids attend school for a full term, to be able to meet work clients face to face, and not have to worry about loosing my job if there is a 2nd wave. Sometimes life is not fair, and you just have to adapt to it.

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10 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

If the authorities in Tahiti are telling you to leave, that includes tuamotus and Marquesas . Same jurisdiction. 

I am aware of that.

What I am asking, is what is the actual issue? Sounds like it is the French kicking them out. That is not a humanitarian issue, that is an overstayer / visa issue.

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