MarkMT 68 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Anyone have any brand recommendations or experience with Lithium Ion batteries for marine use? Looking at about 100Ah. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,674 Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 Wait for IT to get back from chch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 157 Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 We went with 100% Victron in the land yacht and are very happy with it, there are other good and less pricey brands as I'm sure Matt will attest. Its not a dealbreaker but if possible use the same brand across all components in your system, ie the Solar Controller, DC to DC charger, Batt Protect, BMS etc then if you have a warranty or insurance claim you might have more leverage. Insurance companies still seem to still be a bit leery about lithium so it might pay to inform them if you go ahead. The set up in our van I would 100% replicate if we retrofitted the keelboat except with a smaller capacity battery , ours is 330 AH and I'm starting to think its more than we need, even with an induction top, electric kettle and microwave winter will tell. (we have only sucked it down to 75% so far) I tend to think with Lithium the question is more of What brand should I use for my Lithium Battery System ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mattm 104 Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 There are only a few that meet the standard for marine installations. This rules most if not all of the cheap ones out. The only ones I’ve seen in NZ are Mastervolt, Victron and the more expensive Juice ones. There may be others now, I haven’t kept up lately. The main trait that rules the others out is that they need to sound an alarm before the battery management turns off for any reason. The cheaper ones have no output for this. The Mastervolt ones have an Ethernet output to connect an Easyview5, for example, that will sound an alarm, and also a high / low voltage output signal to trigger an alarm buzzer directly. I found a total Mastervolt install with their alternator regulator, shore charger and Easyview5 a really good system. The system is all Ethernet connected, and the battery can tell the chargers what it wants. Makes a very low admin system. Pricey though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 157 Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 More expensive than Victron ? blimey that's some decent kit, our 330AH battery was north of 5k Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 382 Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 We’ve a 160Ah SuperB on Firefly. Supplemented with a 68W solar panel. Set up means the battery is always full when we arrive at the boat; weirdly the superB monitor system uses about 20mA constantly, so it will run itself flat over time. Must look into it because it shouldn’t do that and there must be some other continuous draw… We can go 4 days at anchor without running the engine with occasional use of instruments to check weather etc. the Zeus really gets hot if you leave it on and I suspect it draws a lot of power - never checked. During those 4 days primary use is fridge, lights and water pump. If cruising place to place day-to-day it’s full just from a few minutes engine running to anchor and manoeuvre. It’ll almost always be full after motoring a little way Eg, while making a tidal gate somewhere during the morning calm. Doing it again I would prolly go to 200Ah - I’d like to be able to run a little electric coffee machine for shots. We have a 500W inverter that provides enough 240 to charge computers and allow me to WFH from the boat. But not sure I’d recommend the SuperB as there’s been no support from them post fact. Asking about the continuous draw etc. a black hole. But it does have an alarm … Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Robinh12 0 Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 Only a few meet the requirements for marine installations. This eliminates the majority, if not all, of the low-cost options. In New Zealand, the only ones I've seen are Mastervolt, Victron, and the more expensive Juice models. There could be more now; I haven't kept up. The main difference between them and the others is that they must sound an alarm before the battery management system turns off for any reason. The less expensive ones have no output for this. The Mastervolt ones have an Ethernet output for connecting an Easyview5, for example, to sound an alarm, as well as a high / low voltage output signal to directly trigger an alarm buzzer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted March 18, 2023 Author Share Posted March 18, 2023 Thanks all for the input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Norwegian Blue 10 Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 Mine is a very simple installation (12v only, no engine to start) and I have a Sterling 120AH with Victron mains and smart solar charger. Extremely happy with all the kit, and the battery state and consumption via bluetooth helps massively to manage consumption while there is only solar to top up while out sailing. The Sterling is pretty rugged and nice and light. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted March 19, 2023 Author Share Posted March 19, 2023 I notice in the listing for Sterling lithium batteries at Burnsco https://www.burnsco.co.nz/sterling-amps-lifepo4-lithium-batteries-12v the following comment - Quote Not suitable for boats connected to shore power and needing an Electrical Warrant of Fitness as the AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 standard need the battery to be able to disconnect from all charging sources. Does AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 apply to installations that are not connected to shore power? Just standalone DC on board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,278 Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 45 minutes ago, MarkMT said: I notice in the listing for Sterling lithium batteries at Burnsco https://www.burnsco.co.nz/sterling-amps-lifepo4-lithium-batteries-12v the following comment - Does AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 apply to installations that are not connected to shore power? Just standalone DC on board. Yes. The only exemption is "NOTES: 1 This Standard is not intended to apply to small boats equipped with a battery supplying circuits for engine starting and navigation lighting only that is recharged from an inboard or outboard engine driven alternator." So unless you ONLY have engine start and nav lights.... AND that battery specifically says no alternator charging. IMO there is NO SUCH THING as a "Drop in Lithium battery" on a boat. This article is great, and written by one of the worlds leaders in this field https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted March 19, 2023 Author Share Posted March 19, 2023 Great thanks for that. Lithium certainly seems like the future, but for this replacement cycle it looks like I'll stick with AGM. Maybe next time around it will make more sense to switch. The weight/capacity issue is the main appeal for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,278 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 for me the biggest benefit is the fast charging. No more hours and hours to get to full... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 281 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 Changes boating life. Power is an issue on a lot of boats, and it takes a whole lot of that angst away. For cats, weight is an issue always, less weight, more usable power, faster charging. As for what flavour, I've read about enough issues that I probably wouldn't use anything other than the name brands that are fully integrated systems, unless you're a way better electrical guru than me. We've got Juice/Enertec in the yacht, the camper van is Mastervolt because that's who the builder uses, and that's probably as adventurous as I'd get. When these things go bad it's never a small incident! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 281 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 The other thing to consider is that the battery cost is not the biggest part. Well for us it wasn't anyway. I think the 2 x 200 a/hr li ion batteries were about 9K, total bill with bigger alternators to make use of the faster charging capacity, fuses, contactors, alternator drive kits bla bla bla was more like 20K maybe? I'd still do it again in a heartbeat, but make sure you've got your numbers right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 157 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 +1 for every point Matt and Bad Kitty made, that has been our experience with the land yacht. The four areas where the lithium scores heavily for us are *Low Bulk *Less Weight *Fast Charging because of low internal resistance *Available Capacity being 80% of total. The last two points are the main event for us because even with Microwave, electric kettle and Induction hob plus lights and so on we still haven't pulled it below 75% of capacity and its never charged from the engine, only solar. I'm pondering what to do with the excess energy , maybe a water heater ? The game changer is the speed at which it recovers, which I still cant quite believe (we have 440 watts of solar ) If I was ever to build another boat I would definitely be going lithium and LPG would not be a consideration at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 507 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 As far as I know the standard isn't a requirement. A/ there's no legislation mandating it; and B/ insurance companies don't require compliance Someone please correct me if I am wrong? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 157 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 For what its worth the Inspector who issued the AC compliance cert for the land yacht said the requirements for lithium battery installations were a moving feast. (slightly paraphrasing) In the time between the initial and final sign off there was some new requirement added . Even if you don't have shore power you can still get yourself into a power of expensive trouble if you don't do your homework, as IT says there is no such thing as a drop installation with Lithium. The nuclear option for batt disconnect is an 175A Anderson connector which we installed along with the BMS smarts https://www.jaycar.co.nz/anderson-175a-power-connector/p/PT4424?gclid=CjwKCAjwiOCgBhAgEiwAjv5whBV6dsFLm-dMHqCnAy4L_gLWqOV8eDgbY0Cl5DNUu6dLiCEE4EegbRoCDegQAvD_BwE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,278 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 29 minutes ago, Frank said: For what its worth the Inspector who issued the AC compliance cert for the land yacht said the requirements for lithium battery installations were a moving feast. (slightly paraphrasing) In the time between the initial and final sign off there was some new requirement added . Even if you don't have shore power you can still get yourself into a power of expensive trouble if you don't do your homework, as IT says there is no such thing as a drop installation with Lithium. The nuclear option for batt disconnect is an 175A Anderson connector which we installed along with the BMS smarts https://www.jaycar.co.nz/anderson-175a-power-connector/p/PT4424?gclid=CjwKCAjwiOCgBhAgEiwAjv5whBV6dsFLm-dMHqCnAy4L_gLWqOV8eDgbY0Cl5DNUu6dLiCEE4EegbRoCDegQAvD_BwE Actually those anderson connectors are not that great for LifePo4. Think about this - only 2 of the 18650 cells (3,2v, look like torch batteries) that are in most of the drop ins, shorted, can produce 75a! Short out one 100a/hr LifePo4 battery can produce up to about 20,000 amps. This will blow a fuse of course, BUT, unless it's a class T fuse, it will then arc across the terminals and current will still flow.... So, proper install needs Class T fuse - for each battery - and battery isolation switches. To meet the NZ regs you need a system that gives visual and audio alarms before it shuts off the battery. You can't do that with a bluetooth BMS - It needs CAN or serial control - both of which are wired. Yes the NZ regs are the law - they have been sighted in the courts - currently up to the 2014 standard is my understanding. If you have a commercial vessel, part of the survey is electrical, and you must have a certificate of survey to use a vessel commercially. Private vessels are still subject to the regs, but are not subject to the electrical survey. There is room there I would think so that if you don't follow or exceed the rules, you MAY have an issue if it comes to an insurance claim, especially if the electrics aboard caused the issue. Absolutely Lithium (and other) battery tech is moving rapidly, and the regs struggle to keep up. I have done a few LifePo4 systems for customers, using Eve or Winston cells, but they ALL have Class T fuses, BMS serial controls to control solar, shorepower, Wind gens, external reg Alternators etc, and they all have audible and visual alarms to meet the NZ (and the US ) regs. Trying to keep up with the play.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 507 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 What BMS are you installing with those cells to provide audible and visual alarms? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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