MarkMT 68 Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 Anyone have any brand recommendations or experience with Lithium Ion batteries for marine use? Looking at about 100Ah. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,344 Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 Wait for IT to get back from chch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 85 Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 We went with 100% Victron in the land yacht and are very happy with it, there are other good and less pricey brands as I'm sure Matt will attest. Its not a dealbreaker but if possible use the same brand across all components in your system, ie the Solar Controller, DC to DC charger, Batt Protect, BMS etc then if you have a warranty or insurance claim you might have more leverage. Insurance companies still seem to still be a bit leery about lithium so it might pay to inform them if you go ahead. The set up in our van I would 100% replicate if we retrofitted the keelboat except with a smaller capacity battery , ours is 330 AH and I'm starting to think its more than we need, even with an induction top, electric kettle and microwave winter will tell. (we have only sucked it down to 75% so far) I tend to think with Lithium the question is more of What brand should I use for my Lithium Battery System ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mattm 91 Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 There are only a few that meet the standard for marine installations. This rules most if not all of the cheap ones out. The only ones I’ve seen in NZ are Mastervolt, Victron and the more expensive Juice ones. There may be others now, I haven’t kept up lately. The main trait that rules the others out is that they need to sound an alarm before the battery management turns off for any reason. The cheaper ones have no output for this. The Mastervolt ones have an Ethernet output to connect an Easyview5, for example, that will sound an alarm, and also a high / low voltage output signal to trigger an alarm buzzer directly. I found a total Mastervolt install with their alternator regulator, shore charger and Easyview5 a really good system. The system is all Ethernet connected, and the battery can tell the chargers what it wants. Makes a very low admin system. Pricey though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 85 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 More expensive than Victron ? blimey that's some decent kit, our 330AH battery was north of 5k Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 311 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 We’ve a 160Ah SuperB on Firefly. Supplemented with a 68W solar panel. Set up means the battery is always full when we arrive at the boat; weirdly the superB monitor system uses about 20mA constantly, so it will run itself flat over time. Must look into it because it shouldn’t do that and there must be some other continuous draw… We can go 4 days at anchor without running the engine with occasional use of instruments to check weather etc. the Zeus really gets hot if you leave it on and I suspect it draws a lot of power - never checked. During those 4 days primary use is fridge, lights and water pump. If cruising place to place day-to-day it’s full just from a few minutes engine running to anchor and manoeuvre. It’ll almost always be full after motoring a little way Eg, while making a tidal gate somewhere during the morning calm. Doing it again I would prolly go to 200Ah - I’d like to be able to run a little electric coffee machine for shots. We have a 500W inverter that provides enough 240 to charge computers and allow me to WFH from the boat. But not sure I’d recommend the SuperB as there’s been no support from them post fact. Asking about the continuous draw etc. a black hole. But it does have an alarm … Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Robinh12 0 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Only a few meet the requirements for marine installations. This eliminates the majority, if not all, of the low-cost options. In New Zealand, the only ones I've seen are Mastervolt, Victron, and the more expensive Juice models. There could be more now; I haven't kept up. The main difference between them and the others is that they must sound an alarm before the battery management system turns off for any reason. The less expensive ones have no output for this. The Mastervolt ones have an Ethernet output for connecting an Easyview5, for example, to sound an alarm, as well as a high / low voltage output signal to directly trigger an alarm buzzer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted March 18 Author Share Posted March 18 Thanks all for the input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Norwegian Blue 9 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Mine is a very simple installation (12v only, no engine to start) and I have a Sterling 120AH with Victron mains and smart solar charger. Extremely happy with all the kit, and the battery state and consumption via bluetooth helps massively to manage consumption while there is only solar to top up while out sailing. The Sterling is pretty rugged and nice and light. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 I notice in the listing for Sterling lithium batteries at Burnsco https://www.burnsco.co.nz/sterling-amps-lifepo4-lithium-batteries-12v the following comment - Quote Not suitable for boats connected to shore power and needing an Electrical Warrant of Fitness as the AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 standard need the battery to be able to disconnect from all charging sources. Does AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 apply to installations that are not connected to shore power? Just standalone DC on board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,089 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 45 minutes ago, MarkMT said: I notice in the listing for Sterling lithium batteries at Burnsco https://www.burnsco.co.nz/sterling-amps-lifepo4-lithium-batteries-12v the following comment - Does AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 apply to installations that are not connected to shore power? Just standalone DC on board. Yes. The only exemption is "NOTES: 1 This Standard is not intended to apply to small boats equipped with a battery supplying circuits for engine starting and navigation lighting only that is recharged from an inboard or outboard engine driven alternator." So unless you ONLY have engine start and nav lights.... AND that battery specifically says no alternator charging. IMO there is NO SUCH THING as a "Drop in Lithium battery" on a boat. This article is great, and written by one of the worlds leaders in this field https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 Great thanks for that. Lithium certainly seems like the future, but for this replacement cycle it looks like I'll stick with AGM. Maybe next time around it will make more sense to switch. The weight/capacity issue is the main appeal for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,089 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 for me the biggest benefit is the fast charging. No more hours and hours to get to full... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 209 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Changes boating life. Power is an issue on a lot of boats, and it takes a whole lot of that angst away. For cats, weight is an issue always, less weight, more usable power, faster charging. As for what flavour, I've read about enough issues that I probably wouldn't use anything other than the name brands that are fully integrated systems, unless you're a way better electrical guru than me. We've got Juice/Enertec in the yacht, the camper van is Mastervolt because that's who the builder uses, and that's probably as adventurous as I'd get. When these things go bad it's never a small incident! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 209 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 The other thing to consider is that the battery cost is not the biggest part. Well for us it wasn't anyway. I think the 2 x 200 a/hr li ion batteries were about 9K, total bill with bigger alternators to make use of the faster charging capacity, fuses, contactors, alternator drive kits bla bla bla was more like 20K maybe? I'd still do it again in a heartbeat, but make sure you've got your numbers right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 85 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 +1 for every point Matt and Bad Kitty made, that has been our experience with the land yacht. The four areas where the lithium scores heavily for us are *Low Bulk *Less Weight *Fast Charging because of low internal resistance *Available Capacity being 80% of total. The last two points are the main event for us because even with Microwave, electric kettle and Induction hob plus lights and so on we still haven't pulled it below 75% of capacity and its never charged from the engine, only solar. I'm pondering what to do with the excess energy , maybe a water heater ? The game changer is the speed at which it recovers, which I still cant quite believe (we have 440 watts of solar ) If I was ever to build another boat I would definitely be going lithium and LPG would not be a consideration at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 26 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Not suitable for boats connected to shore power and needing an Electrical Warrant of Fitness as the AUS/NZS 3004.2:2004 standard need the battery to be able to disconnect from all charging sources. Most decent BMS's will do a HV, LV, Temp, current, SOC disconnect of charge/ load bus to parameters set, so don't understand above statement. Plus other things like balancing. Coupled with a Victron BMV you can set audible alarms lower than bms and or use the relay function to open a contactor. Very confusing. Not all of us can afford/need/justify fully automated systems with separate buses, at X times price. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 306 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 As far as I know the standard isn't a requirement. A/ there's no legislation mandating it; and B/ insurance companies don't require compliance Someone please correct me if I am wrong? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 26 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Also doesn't seem to align with ABYC E13, which is somewhat open ended, but at least ratified which we seem to try an avoid. Does AUS/NZS 3004 2004 even acknowledge the range of Lithium ion batteries and where LiFePo4 sits in terms of risk? Isn't there a 2014 version at least. It will be only one decade behind. https://panbo.com/abyc-ratifies-e-13-their-first-lithium-battery-standard/ I can't see Burnsco stocking LiFePo4 (with bmss) and tagging that contradictory non-sense to it on purpose, 'cept they have it appears. Agreed CD, I checked 4mnths ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 85 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 For what its worth the Inspector who issued the AC compliance cert for the land yacht said the requirements for lithium battery installations were a moving feast. (slightly paraphrasing) In the time between the initial and final sign off there was some new requirement added . Even if you don't have shore power you can still get yourself into a power of expensive trouble if you don't do your homework, as IT says there is no such thing as a drop installation with Lithium. The nuclear option for batt disconnect is an 175A Anderson connector which we installed along with the BMS smarts https://www.jaycar.co.nz/anderson-175a-power-connector/p/PT4424?gclid=CjwKCAjwiOCgBhAgEiwAjv5whBV6dsFLm-dMHqCnAy4L_gLWqOV8eDgbY0Cl5DNUu6dLiCEE4EegbRoCDegQAvD_BwE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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