Any experience with a Whiting 40?

[Black Panther 1,587]

42 minutes ago, Luigi Vercotti said:

I'd be more inclined to go with the 1hp/ft rule. I have a 32ft over all 24ft waterline with 4 tonne displacement. I have a 3GM30 27hp. I couldn't imagine life with 16hp.

I had the same boat with 13hp. Never gave it a 2nd thought. Like I said there'll be lots of opinions on this one. 

[southernman 73]

On 31/08/2023 at 5:36 PM, Island Time said:

30 HP was common for these. Lots of 40 ftrs had 30's - incl many of the farr 1220's.

Island Time had the Volvo 2003, 28hp when I bought her. One day in Wellington in 45 knots I could not get into my berth directly to weather.  Cruising speed was about 6 knots. The Whiting 40 would be about the same weight and performance. Once I upgraded to the 2003T (Turbo version, 43 HP) cruising speed 6.5 - 7, approx. 8 at WOT.  Best economic speed was about 4.9 knots at 0.75ltrs/hour.

Now a VPD2 40hp 4 cyl. More torque and better performance, Cruise at about 7knots, and no problem pushing into a headwind!

Yeah my comments more about intended use.  30hp is fine for most of the time until it's not.  My first offshore boat was underpowered and it nearly meant we ened up on the rocks.  You will get away with 30hp no problems until you need the extra punch.  Case in point this season we pushed into 45 knots and tide to get the last 1 hour of a 4 day passage.  Certainly was very glad for the extra power to enable this with a tired crew, the constant squalls and rain and night approaching.  

I was not meaning to say 30hp is not a good option, more that if you are comparing boats of the same type and a bigger engine is avialable then take that option.  There is also nothing more frustrating than a small motor at higher RPM for a day on end when their is no wind. Of course there are real sailers out there that are happy to wait it out for wind, but not for me.  

Trust me you will also end up doing more sailing with a well sized engine, just removes the stress and you know you can get home into most weather!  

[harrytom 643]

The old boy had 10hp buck in a davo 28ft well under powered at maori rock in sw out going,had a 30hp fordson in 1/2 ton spencer 30ft never had a issue, yes to different weighted vessel 2 ft difference triple hp was comforting,hardly used it but good to know we could get home

[Ex Machina 366]

This topic reminds me of the time we nearly ended up on the rock wall behind the squadron inside the marina ….Y11 with an 18hp and 30 knot SW . 

[raz88 96]

On 3/09/2023 at 10:31 AM, Ex Machina said:

This topic reminds me of the time we nearly ended up on the rock wall behind the squadron inside the marina ….Y11 with an 18hp and 30 knot SW 

In contrast, we had an Elliott 10.5 with an 18hp, and it motored beautifully.  Very similar boat and probably the exact same engine (volvo 2002). Never had any issues like that and motored/maneuvered in plenty of bigger breezes than 30kn.

There was a y11 I know of that only had 13hp, on a shaft, and it was a bit gutless, but has so far survived over 40 years on that motor and been and done a lot of places/stuff.

There are a lot of variables here. Sail drives tend to be more efficient than shaft. Prop size, type and pitch. Is the engine operating properly etc.

To provide some reassurance to the OP, the beneteau first 40.7, of which there were 700 or so built, were 40 feet and sold standard with a 30hp (optional 40). If it was wildly under what was needed to drive the boat in a blow they'd be going on the rocks all over the world.

 

[K4309 259]

Spot on raz88, there are so many more elements to making a boat go than just motor size. All you need is a couple of barnacles on the prop and it will go like a sack of sh*t. That is assuming the prop is a well matched size and pitch for your motor and gearbox. The gearbox being relevant as your shaft speed is what makes the prop work, which is completely different to engine rpm.

Given the cost of propellers, esp fancy ones like the super-doper folding ones, how many people have put on a new fancy prop (folder) and found either the pitch or size wasn't quiet right, but sucked it up, or never got around to doing another haul out, getting the engineer / supplier down or paying the coin to change the prop to the correct pitch? esp when you've already had the prop hub machined to match the shaft taper and can't return it?

Not to mention just having a dirty bum on the boat. So yeah, there are loads of reasons a boat may not be able to motor off sea wall in a blow. I'd bet a bottle of whisky that the engine being too small accounts for only 10% of incidence. Poorly matched prop, dirty prop (barnacles) dirty bum would account for the rest I reckon.

[Ex Machina 366]

4 hours ago, raz88 said:

In contrast, we had an Elliott 10.5 with an 18hp, and it motored beautifully.  Very similar boat and probably the exact same engine (volvo 2002). Never had any issues like that and motored/maneuvered in plenty of bigger breezes than 30kn.

There was a y11 I know of that only had 13hp, on a shaft, and it was a bit gutless, but has so far survived over 40 years on that motor and been and done a lot of places/stuff.

There are a lot of variables here. Sail drives tend to be more efficient than shaft. Prop size, type and pitch. Is the engine operating properly etc.

To provide some reassurance to the OP, the beneteau first 40.7, of which there were 700 or so built, were 40 feet and sold standard with a 30hp (optional 40). If it was wildly under what was needed to drive the boat in a blow they'd be going on the rocks all over the world.

 

Yeah sorry It was the 13hp engine and it’s still pop popping 

[southernman 73]

20 hours ago, K4309 said:

Spot on raz88, there are so many more elements to making a boat go than just motor size. All you need is a couple of barnacles on the prop and it will go like a sack of sh*t. That is assuming the prop is a well matched size and pitch for your motor and gearbox. The gearbox being relevant as your shaft speed is what makes the prop work, which is completely different to engine rpm.

Given the cost of propellers, esp fancy ones like the super-doper folding ones, how many people have put on a new fancy prop (folder) and found either the pitch or size wasn't quiet right, but sucked it up, or never got around to doing another haul out, getting the engineer / supplier down or paying the coin to change the prop to the correct pitch? esp when you've already had the prop hub machined to match the shaft taper and can't return it?

Not to mention just having a dirty bum on the boat. So yeah, there are loads of reasons a boat may not be able to motor off sea wall in a blow. I'd bet a bottle of whisky that the engine being too small accounts for only 10% of incidence. Poorly matched prop, dirty prop (barnacles) dirty bum would account for the rest I reckon.

Good points made it's certainly not just HP but i'm just talking about the general intended use of the boat, Cat 1 up in the islands or further afield, not an Elliot on Auckland harbour.  Generally there is enough wind to sail most places.  The only times you need a reliable well powered engine are when you have no wind, anchoring or when in the sh*t.  The last one, you want to have a well powered vessel.  When it's dark and it starts blowing from the wrong direction and you have rocks behind you I can guarantee you will be thankful of having the right power behind you.  Having recently sailed around the top end of Australia, I can guarantee you a well powered engine is essential.  The tides and currents are huge.  

[raz88 96]

On 6/09/2023 at 2:40 PM, southernman said:

Good points made it's certainly not just HP but i'm just talking about the general intended use of the boat, Cat 1 up in the islands or further afield, not an Elliot on Auckland harbour.  Generally there is enough wind to sail most places.  The only times you need a reliable well powered engine are when you have no wind, anchoring or when in the sh*t.  The last one, you want to have a well powered vessel.  When it's dark and it starts blowing from the wrong direction and you have rocks behind you I can guarantee you will be thankful of having the right power behind you.  Having recently sailed around the top end of Australia, I can guarantee you a well powered engine is essential.  The tides and currents are huge.  

Funnily enough the Elliott I mentioned had started its life in Perth, and over 30 years been a fair number of places in between there and Auckland harbour with its trusty old 18hp engine...

Yes you want a boat to motor well, but a 30hp should be fine in a whiting 40, or at least worth not ruling it out without investigation. 

[Frank 157]

On 11/09/2023 at 2:54 PM, raz88 said:

Funnily enough the Elliott I mentioned had started its life in Perth, and over 30 years been a fair number of places in between there and Auckland harbour with its trusty old 18hp engine...

Yes you want a boat to motor well, but a 30hp should be fine in a whiting 40, or at least worth not ruling it out without investigation. 

You can get away with being underpowered if you plan around it but I would definitely want 40hp in a boat of that size. As commented o elsewhere  a saildrive should make more effective use of available HP and likewise a 3 Bladed Fixed pitch prop. The latter will create more drag when sailing  but in a decent breeze its not a major and in the lighter airs offshore you are likely to be motor sailing to maintain planned daily mileage and stay inside a weather window. Another factor to consider is windage, drag increases by the square of wind speed and when the vessel is fully configured for offshore this can be significantly increased with Inner forestay, furled sails , Stack Pack, Lazy Jacks, Radar Arch and Solar Panels, Spare Jerry Cans of Fuel,dinghy on the foredeck and so on. As others have commented the cheapest Cat 1 yacht is one that was recently compliant and the equipment is included in the sale inventory. The cost to  refit a 1980's GRP 40 ft yacht for an offshore passage will depend very much on its current state and what you need vs what you can do without. Its somewhat down to personal choice and Its easy to omit certain items until your significant other gets a vote and suddenly a watermaker, increased tankage and hot shower  is mission critical . Well you also don't need a new mainsail or genoa until you take it in to the sailmaker for repairs and he says "Jaysus I wouldn't go offshore with that " OK he might be after a sale but also trying to tell you something !.  I would budget north of 100K Divided into three categories

1. Equipment Upgrades
2. Modifications , such as a Radar Arch, Solar Panels, Water Maker etc etc
3. Anything on the CAT 1 list that is not already covered by the first two categories.
   
   It sounds daunting maybe but if it is spread over say 5 or 6 seasons and you put plenty of sweat equity into it then its quite feasible and you will then know the vessel inside out which comes in handy when you are halfway to fiji and the engine dies just as your crew say "why is there water over the floorboards" 

[Black Panther 1,587]

Do people honestly motor into strong headwinds?

[Jon 360]

57 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

Do people honestly motor into strong headwinds?

No

but saying that the number of people we met in Fiji this year in cats mostly, that said ‘we motor or motorsail always on passage” surprised me 

‘There doesn’t seem to be the level of sailing skills in the cruising fleet that you would expect 

[Black Panther 1,587]

I have never considered the engine much use as a tool for safety. I have once in 50 years used an engine to move away from a reef when becalmed. Other than that nothing comes to mind. 

[Frank 157]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

No

but saying that the number of people we met in Fiji this year in cats mostly, that said ‘we motor or motorsail always on passage” surprised me 

‘There doesn’t seem to be the level of sailing skills in the cruising fleet that you would expect 

Some cats (Brand/model redacted) need a motor when the wind is forward of the beam :-), even skilled sailors may still motorsail if it means making good time to dodge a deteriorating  weather window not so much of an issue perhaps on vessels that can average 180 - 200 miles per day 

[southernman 73]

3 hours ago, Black Panther said:

I have never considered the engine much use as a tool for safety. I have once in 50 years used an engine to move away from a reef when becalmed. Other than that nothing comes to mind. 

Yes but there are two factors most don't have, time and skill.  It's all a trade off.  Heaps of time then wait for the right wind.  No skill stick the iron sail on.  End of the day I'm proudly in the camp of have engines use them to save time and add a level of safety.  Of course in the first place have a boat that sails fast, be well informed about weather, tides and anchorages and get out there. 

Regarding cats going to windward, most probably motor on passage pretty normal, I've seen a lot in the islands motor sailing as they are potentially poorly designed, too heavy and too much wetted surface.  Not that it's a bad thing I love an ice maker and endless hot water and a/c.  Just depends on what pushes your buttons.  For me our outremer is a good balance.  Suprisingly the dagger boards only make around 5% difference.  

[Frank 157]

I have sailed on a cat that is probably  somewhere between say a Lagoon and a Gunboat in performance terms. During a coastal classic race the VMG was the same as an adjacent Cav 32 while going to windward ie 6 knots, the CB's made only a marginal difference. 

[K4309 259]

Does anyone know the design displacement of a Whiting 40?

Asking for a friend, needs to be under 10t to allow hauling at our club.

Noting that if cruising weight is over 10t it could be unloaded to get down to the permitted weight (i.e. drop water tanks). Any actually design data would be ideal, but general estimates helpful.

[Frank 157]

According to Sailboat data.com a Farr 1220 displaces just  over 6 Tonnes as Matt noted a Whiting 40 will be similar so your friends should be well under 10 Tonnes even with all the extras and fluids etc.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/whiting-36/

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/farr-1220/

[Island Time 1,235]

8 hours ago, K4309 said:

Does anyone know the design displacement of a Whiting 40?

Asking for a friend, needs to be under 10t to allow hauling at our club.

Noting that if cruising weight is over 10t it could be unloaded to get down to the permitted weight (i.e. drop water tanks). Any actually design data would be ideal, but general estimates helpful.

Bit heavier than the Farr, but around 8 metric tons. + Gear. But it will be under 10...