Lifepo4 and led acid hybrid system

[Island Time 1,235]

14 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

Hi IT, sorry I did not explain myself clearly - my bad.

You are referring to the standard - I am referring to the legislation that gives legal force to the standard.

Without legislation, (or a private body**), that requires the standard be followed, the standard has no effect. 

Per the link you provided, AS/NZS3004:2014 is only legislated by the Maritime Act and Maritime Rule 40E - this rule does not apply to private sailing vessels.  It applies to commercial sailing vessels that are in survey.

The standards.govt.nz site does not list any legislation that gives force to AS/NZS3004:2014 on private sailing vessels.

There is legislation that gives force to the standards predecessor, AS/NZS3004:2008 - this is the Electricity Safety Regulations 2010.  That legislation, legally requires, that ships connected to shore power, (or with self generation), must comply with the 2008 standard.  But not the 2014 standard.

In 2019 there was a MBIE working group which found that the reference to the 2008 standard in the legislation should be updated to the 2014 standard - but that has not occurred yet - the legislation has not been amended.

** any private body, is of course, allowed to say that they only will accept the 2014 standard.

Eg, as an electrician in business you are perfectly entitled to say "I will only do work that meets the 2014 standard".

We have discussed many times on this forum the same thing with the gas standard.  The Gas Standard says that it does not apply to installations before that standard was produced.  But good luck finding a gas fitter that will sign off on your installation being compliant to the previous standard... I doubt you will find one...

As of today I cannot find any legal requirement to comply with AS/NZS3004:2014 on pleasure craft.  It may become a requirement in the future if the legislation is ever amended.

Even if one were just to assume that v2014 automatically trumps the v2008 reference (which I think would be a reasonable assumption) in the regulations, the regulations still do not apply to pleasure vessels without AC.

Nope, Sorry. The Link i provided gives the current legal citings buy the courts making the version I linked to the current legal rules. I agree that the "standards" or not law until they are citied by the courts. That's why the link also states that this is the "Current" legal version. If you wish to try to prove this in the courts, feel free. 

Even if you could prove it's the older version, the new one, I understand, is only months away (2020 version I believe, currently still under review), and they there are more restrictions coming. I would point out though, that the standards ARE NOT RETROSPECTIVE, so if it was ok when installed, it's ok until modified/rebuilt.

[CarpeDiem 430]

48 minutes ago, Island Time said:

Nope, Sorry. The Link i provided gives the current legal citings buy the courts making the version I linked to the current legal rules. I agree that the "standards" or not law until they are citied by the courts. That's why the link also states that this is the "Current" legal version. If you wish to try to prove this in the courts, feel free. 

Even if you could prove it's the older version, the new one, I understand, is only months away (2020 version I believe, currently still under review), and they there are more restrictions coming. I would point out though, that the standards ARE NOT RETROSPECTIVE, so if it was ok when installed, it's ok until modified/rebuilt.

Sorry IT.

The citations are for the Maritime Act, specifically rule 40.

Rule 40 does not apply to pleasure craft.  It applies to commercial craft in survey. 

If you can show me a citation that applies to pleasure craft I will get off my soap box. 

[Frank 157]

7 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

Sorry IT.

The citations are for the Maritime Act, specifically rule 40.

Rule 40 does not apply to pleasure craft.  It applies to commercial craft in survey. 

If you can show me a citation that applies to pleasure craft I will get off my soap box, so far out of three electricians and one inspector, none have been able to point to legislation that enforces the standard on pleasure craft. 

Interesting debate, I'm trying to relate it to how the rules work in aviation where generally the regulator (CAANZ) not the rule maker (Parliament) controls what is acceptable or not in terms of a standard. The standards can be designated by the Director of the CAA as "acceptable" as a means of complying with the rule. Rule changes require an act of parliament and so specific mention of a standard  can be a curse for the regulator and industry alike  unless it specifically omits the revision status then any changes to the standard once published are automatically the new means of compliance. If we left it to the courts to clarify the acceptable standard then that would be a huge fail on behalf of the regulator and the industry (and perhaps parliament)

Any electrical inspectors here who can tell us how your compliance mechanics work ? who is the regulator ?

 

 

[CarpeDiem 430]

17 minutes ago, Guest said:

Any way to view the standard without paying? Not much point in reading if its not ratified for pleasure craft. 

I stopped paying for NZS 3604 & amendments in 2019 as the MBIE probably decided that it was counter productive to make users pay for rules and sponsored them. If the amendments were actually well thought through and comprehensive I guess the industry has to pay, Paying for piecemeal, ad hoc amendments goes against the grain. Never thought to check whether they were backed by legislative process.

For Auckland, 3004:2014 is available at the library.  Only at Auckland Central - they won't send it to other libraries.

I am waiting for them to get AS/NZS 3760:2022 on the shelf. I have been doing my test and tagging myself and there are some updates I need to get across before my tag expires.

That's another great example of a standard that is not legislated but is required by a private party, there is nothing in the law requiring test and tagging, but the Marina requires it - so if I want to use my e-box - I need it test and tagged...

 

[Black Panther 1,587]

I think I'll just stay off grid.

[Island Time 1,235]

7 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

Sorry IT.

The citations are for the Maritime Act, specifically rule 40.

Rule 40 does not apply to pleasure craft.  It applies to commercial craft in survey. 

If you can show me a citation that applies to pleasure craft I will get off my soap box. 

CD for me, the Electrical inspector I use says the 2014 version is the current one. The NZ Govt Website says it is the current one. I linked to the Govt website that shows this. Here is the screenshot.

It shows the 2008 standard as superseded. That is sufficient for me. If you wish to disagree, you of course are free to do so. Potentially, IMO, you could have to do so in court.

The "connectable installation" section is not present in this version. So ALL boats must comply, except as excluded (small boats with only Alts/Magneto's and lights, no real electrical systems)

Again, the standards are not retrospective - if your boat has non compliant systems, that's ok, but anything new must comply.

This is also the opinion of the local electrical inspector here.

 

[CarpeDiem 430]

40 minutes ago, Island Time said:

CD for me, the Electrical inspector I use says the 2014 version is the current one. The NZ Govt Website says it is the current one. I linked to the Govt website that shows this. Here is the screenshot.

It shows the 2008 standard as superseded. That is sufficient for me. If you wish to disagree, you of course are free to do so. Potentially, IMO, you could have to do so in court.

The "connectable installation" section is not present in this version. So ALL boats must comply, except as excluded (small boats with only Alts/Magneto's and lights, no real electrical systems)

Again, the standards are not retrospective - if your boat has non compliant systems, that's ok, but anything new must comply.

This is also the opinion of the local electrical inspector here.

 

Hey IT. Not disputing that it's the current standard. That is without question.  It absolutely is the most current standard. 

The question is, how it is legislated and mandated onto private pleasure vessels? 

If it is not legislated specifically to private pleasure vessels then it does not apply to private pleasure vessels. It's really that simple. 

Standards do not become a legal requirement unless there is a legislative instrument enforcing such. 

I will do some more investigation

 

[K4309 258]

39 minutes ago, Guest said:

If Lithium chemistry (any sort) is currently not acceptable for starting an auxiliary motor, does this include in an emergency? And, essentially is the provision for same in terms of wiring legal or illegal.?

 

It really is a fundamental safety element to be able to parallel the house batteries to start the engine when the start battery has an issue. I've never heard of anyone successfully push-starting a boat. In my view not being able to do this, or having questions marks over doing this is a major red flag for Lithium.

I really don't understand how everyone says lithium are so great when all these issues are hanging around.

As an aside, when I was looking at Lithium batteries, one of the suppliers made a point of telling me the BMS was fully serviceable. I was rather confused as to why you'd need to service the BMS. It is now apparent that you could do something fairly innocuous like parallel it to the start battery and blow a FET with inrush current trying to start your engine. Ending up in black-ship state and needing to spend boat dollars fixing said super amaze-balls battery's BMS.

[Psyche 633]

Better tell Repco to stop selling these

[CarpeDiem 430]

3 hours ago, Guest said:

If it was cited in court against a pleasure craft owner and accepted then one would assume it was ratified by legislation?Are any of those cited, pleasure craft? No lawyer would leave that stone unturned.

If Lithium chemistry (any sort) is currently not acceptable for starting an auxiliary motor, does this include in an emergency? And, essentially is the provision for same in terms of wiring legal or illegal.?

Can't find the time to visit Auckland library right now.

Standards don't get cited by the court - that's a misunderstanding.  Standards get cited in legislation (or in private policies).

Two examples:

New Zealand Marinas have "cited" AS/NZS 3760 - In-service safety inspection and testing of electrical equipment and RCDs - Marinas have set a private rule, that requires users of shore power to have tested and tagged cables - this is not a legal requirement - it is a private requirement of the Marina, based on industry best practice.  This standard is not "cited" in any NZ legislation.

MartimeNZ Rule 40 (link), has cited AS/NZS 3004.2:2014.  Maritime NZ Rules are secondary legislation.  On there own they have no legal authority.  MaritimeNZ rules are cited by parliament in the Maritime Transport Act 1994.  This Act of parliament gives legal authority to Rule 40 and therefore authority to the standard.

NB: Maritime NZ Rule 40, ??does not apply to pleasure craft??.  It applies to New Zealand's Commercial Domestic Fleet.  Happy for someone to correct me on this.

Standards Being Retrospective

Someone mentioned above that the standards are not retrospective.  While that is true, an authority is able to make the standards retrospective, so it is also not true...

Eg, MaritimeNZ are currently undertaking a review of rule 40 because they made AS/NZS3004.2 a legally retrospective requirement.  oops

Quote

Amendments to the electrical systems rules in 2014 required many existing ships in the fleet to comply with AS/NZS 3004.2. This was not intended. It is difficult and prohibitively expensive to achieve unless an existing ship is stripped out and re-wired.

Pleasure Craft

Pleasure craft fall under secondary legislation, which is the Electrical (Safety) Regulations 2010 (link).  These regulations say what you can and cannot do, they define what is or is not prescribed work, prescribed work can only be undertaken by a certified electrician.

These regulations "cite" the standards that must be followed (link).

NB: AS/NZS3004.2:2014 is NOT cited - but AS/NZS3004.2:2008 is.  I will add there's about 100 standards in here, so while 2014 isn't specifically called out, it's completely possible that another standard "cites" 2014 indirectly making it a legal requirement...

As above, secondary legislation has no legal authority on it's own.  To close the loop on that, an Act of parliament is required, this is the Electricity Act 1992.  This Act gives authority to the secondary legislation, the regulations and the standard.

Applicability to pleasure vessels without AC power

From the regulations:

S3 - Application: things these regulations do not apply to
Nothing in these regulations applies to any of the following, or to work done on any of the following:
[...]
(d) ships other than—
     (i) pleasure vessels containing connectable installations;

S7 - Connectable Installations
For the purpose of the definition of connectable installation in section 2(1) of the Act in relation to a vehicle, a relocatable building, or a pleasure vessel, a connectable installation is one that is designed or intended for, or is capable of, connection to an external power supply that operates at a nominal voltage between 90 and 250 volts AC at standard low voltage.

pleasure vessel is further described - but is what we would expect - so no point delving into that... 
 

Summary

I have tried to find out how this standard could be legally enforced on pleasure boats without AC power.  As a boat owner with a DIY everything, I like to know that I am following the rules, and more importantly fully understand which rules I am breaking.

I approached this with the view that the standard was a legal requirement and set out to prove it, I legitimately thought it was.  But I have not been able to find any evidence it is.

This gives credence to the statement that I see in magazine articles and NZ marine retailers, which goes something like:

Burnsco: Not suitable for boats connected to shore power and needing an Electrical Warrant of Fitness as the AUS/NZS 3004.2:2014 standard need the battery to be able to disconnect from all charging sources. (link)

Disclaimer:

Do not rely on this for legal advice - this is the summary of my findings for my own personal use - please do your own research.  I would love for someone to tell me that I am wrong and show me how the standard applies

[Frank 157]

I don't see why you couldn't  use a DC to DC charger to recharge the house battery from the lithium 

[Ex Babe 5]

CarpeDiem is 100% correct.

It is not the courts but the government (by way of legislation) that determine which standards and which version of that standard must be complied with. 

There are hundreds of NZ standards covering all sorts of areas available. Most of those are simply best practice (or perhaps not) but only the standards and the specific version of that standard cited in relevant legislation can be enforced by the courts. 

As in the example above re marinas there is nothing stopping any organization requiring people to comply with any standard in order to use their private property. The public can then decide whether to comply with that standard or go elsewhere. That is not the same as complying with a specific standard in order to comply with legislation.

The Building Code cites numerous standards to be used to achieve compliance. This is enforced by the Building Act. Many of these standards are not the latest version (and in some cases are several versions behind). Sometimes this is intentional because the latest standard doesn't achieve the requirements of the Building Code. Sometimes the Building Code simply hasn't caught up. Sometimes standards are modified by adding or removing passages in order to achieve what the Building Code wants. 

Unfortunately the authors of some the standards in the construction industry at least don't seem to have any interest in working with the legislators in order to ensure revised standards are consistent with the requirements of the Building Code.

25 years working in building control was a constant battle keeping up with which version of the various standards and trying to explain to designers why they cant use the standard they want to.

As far as the electrical standards are concerned I have no specific knowledge and cant be bothered trying to find out. However CarpeDiem appears to have done a fair bit of research and I can well believe he is correct that the 2008 standard is the cited version.   

There is nothing wrong with using the latest version of a cited standard until there is a conflict between the two. Then the cited standard is the one that is enforceable.

 

     

      

[CarpeDiem 430]

23 minutes ago, Guest said:

My question was as these citations were in court I assumed some one was being prosecuted and the citation produced illustrated they were breaking

I am not aware of any citations to court judgements.  The only references to citations in this thread have been to secondary legislation, namely, Maritime Rule 40.

23 minutes ago, Guest said:

M2CW-  Over word salads, just fckn tell me if I can have a LTO start battery and stay in marina!

Unless your marina or other some other entity has some rules that you are contractually obliged to adhere too, I can't find anything preventing this - so long as if you do not have AC power - then it is much greyer

For a bit of thread drift, I got myself some Sodium-ion cells the other day.  Nothing in any standard, legislation or anywhere else about Na-ion batteries  

[aardvarkash10 960]

1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

For a bit of thread drift, I got myself some Sodium-ion cells the other day.  

Is that a lead acid battery filled with seawater?😁

[Ex Babe 5]

Cited in this context means specifically noted in the relevant legislation as being a standard that must be complied with. 

[Ex Machina 366]

Nice simple summary of Lifepo4 install .

https://svviolethour.com/2023/10/23/lithium-battery-system-install-on-our-sailboat/

[Island Time 1,235]

2 hours ago, Ex Machina said:

Nice simple summary of Lifepo4 install .

https://svviolethour.com/2023/10/23/lithium-battery-system-install-on-our-sailboat/

Be careful of quoting installs that don't meet ABYC or AUS/NZS regs. The stumbling block for most drop ins is that they must have both visual and auto warnings before switching off the batts. Bluetooth units can't do this - or at least any Ive seen. If you look for a BMS with CAN bus (or any external coms) then you can comply...

[Guest 74]

Exactly what is the wording on  Aus/Nz std? Meaning HV/LW audible warning at a cellular level Or// at a battery level? Not so subtle electrical  diff. Obviously cellular is better imo.

Pretty easy to add a BMV712 and get an audible warning. Also utilise mid point take off. And if you dont like the 712 volume (low) use the relay with a louder one. Or, the offender at a cellar level is easily identified &  monitored with a voltage sensitive  configurable relay to a piezo. $20. Same cell wins the race in both batteries every time, not by much. But its really consistent thanks to Mr Ohm  and the chemistry/ manufacture QC. If a different cell Sh*ts itself then you are relying on battery monitor setting audible warning.  Having a switching BMS would be preferable to putting one on each cell. (VSR)

Not hard to run some tests with bms cutting off charge /discharge,  check battery Voltage and allow delta for BMV setting  for alarm. Of course this means a battery monitor with relay & bms for each battery . Still more economical than Rec, electrodacus etc and contactors x N.  Don't see how they can demand it be auto.

Personally I prefer simplicity, and do the switching myself. Point is, does this level meet the std? I am not doing it for a job, DIY personal, so it doesn't matter i guess. 

Batteries= cells in series with own BMS.   Bank = paralleled batteries output same voltage, twice Ahrs. (only for the confused)

 

 

 

[Island Time 1,235]

30 minutes ago, Guest said:

Exactly what is the wording on  Aus/Nz std? Meaning HV/LW audible warning at a cellular level Or// at a battery level? Not so subtle electrical  diff. Obviously cellular is better imo.

Pretty easy to add a BMV712 and get an audible warning. Also utilise mid point take off. And if you dont like the 712 volume (low) use the relay with a louder one. Or, the offender at a cellar level is easily identified &  monitored with a voltage sensitive  configurable relay to a piezo. $20. Same cell wins the race in both batteries every time, not by much. But its really consistent thanks to Mr Ohm  and the chemistry/ manufacture QC. If a different cell Sh*ts itself then you are relying on battery monitor setting audible warning.  Having a switching BMS would be preferable to putting one on each cell. (VSR)

Not hard to run some tests with bms cutting off charge /discharge,  check battery Voltage and allow delta for BMV setting  for alarm. Of course this means a battery monitor with relay & bms for each battery . Still more economical than Rec, electrodacus etc and contactors x N.  Don't see how they can demand it be auto.

Personally I prefer simplicity, and do the switching myself. Point is, does this level meet the std? I am not doing it for a job, DIY personal, so it doesn't matter i guess. 

Batteries= cells in series with own BMS.   Bank = paralleled batteries output same voltage, twice Ahrs. (only for the confused)

 

 

 

Both voltage and temp at cell level;

"(b) Each lithium ion battery shall be provided with a battery management safety system (BMS) either integrated into a battery pack or as a separate component located adjacent to the battery. The BMS shall continuously monitor the voltage and temperature of each cell in the battery.

(c) All charging sources shall be automatically disconnected by the BMS when voltage exceeds the manufacturer’s recommended maximum.

(d) All connected load shall be automatically disconnected by the BMS when the voltage falls below the manufacturer’s recommended minimum.

(e) The battery shall be automatically disconnected by the BMS from all connected load and all charging sources when temperature exceeds the manufacturer’s specified maximum.

(f) The BMS shall provide an audible and visual alarm at the normal vessel operating position before a disconnection event occurs."