K4309 258 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 4 hours ago, Guest said: When is the target extinction date for LPG? That depends entirely on who you voted for. But in reality there is no target extinction date, just some really good excuses for LPG to hike prices until it becomes intolerably expensive. Then it will be economically viable to discover some more and we will just carry on. Either that or some smart cookie will start knocking out kero stoves in their workshop and make a good profit with a willing market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 258 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Back to the original question of the Insurance co requiring a gas certificate. Is the same insurance co requiring anything else? Hull Survey? Rig check? Just focusing on gas seems a bit random, if you are trying to assess the overall risk of loss on the boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
khayyam 68 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 2 hours ago, K4309 said: That depends entirely on who you voted for. But in reality there is no target extinction date, just some really good excuses for LPG to hike prices until it becomes intolerably expensive. Then it will be economically viable to discover some more and we will just carry on. Either that or some smart cookie will start knocking out kero stoves in their workshop and make a good profit with a willing market. The recent news was about mains gas connections. The end of bottled gas is a (very) long way off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 430 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 minute ago, khayyam said: The end of bottled gas is a (very) long way off. It's never. The current proposal is that bottled LPG will be replaced by bottled bioLPG by or before 2050 there is no end to bottled gas proposed. NZ industry/govt needs to get its sh*t together and build a manufacturing plant. There was one proposed for 2020 but it's still on hold. Connections to the natural gas network (not lpg) are a different kettle of fish. But nothing is currently confirmed and no date has been set and it might not even happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ballystick 72 Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 2 hours ago, K4309 said: Back to the original question of the Insurance co requiring a gas certificate. Is the same insurance co requiring anything else? Hull Survey? Rig check? Just focusing on gas seems a bit random, if you are trying to assess the overall risk of loss on the boat. The gas cert was only part of the requirement of Vero, they wanted boat survey, rig check and sail replacement record so it was quite expensive. 30 year old boat was the trigger 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 258 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 7 minutes ago, ballystick said: The gas cert was only part of the requirement of Vero, they wanted boat survey, rig check and sail replacement record so it was quite expensive. 30 year old boat was the trigger ewwhh. My boat is a couple short of 40 years, and wooden. Just been asked for the boat survey and rig check. Those I think I can handle (haven't gotten price for a survey yet) as I'd like to know about issues before they become major problems, but if it starts opening up a can of worms and there are additional checks and hoops later, I don't know. Perhaps I'll take up golf or something? I can probably get a good wing-foil set for the cost of survey, rig check and annual insurance premium. Last time I changed insurers (when Vero put our rates up 200% in one go) most outfits wanted a moderately recent survey / pre-purchase inspection. But one outfit wanted my mooring piles surveyed before they'd even quote. I was like, well, they're round, and go into the ground... what is to survey? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 157 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Here is a Photo of the Inverter/Battery Compartment in the land Yacht, the cable run from the Battery to the Inverter would be approx 1M , the cable outer Dia is 16mm and I'm guessing the thickness of the insulation is 1.5 mm ? giving a core dia of 13mm ? If so the cross section is 132 mm Sq. For the curious I have included a photo of the El- Cheapo Breville Induction plate we use, it was $80 at Noel Leemings from Memory. Our meals on the H20 Yacht and the land Yacht tend to be simple so we only ever need one burner/plate as neither of us are particularly fond of cooking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frank 157 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 For those pondering a LiFEpo retrofit the battery, 3 KW Inverter, DC to DC charger, Solar Controller, and associated components are under the fwd end of the RH bunk in the photo. The space it occupies is modest and would easily be accommodated In a small yacht. The DC to DC charger is on the Bunk Front but has yet to Kick in (18 months ) as solar has been sufficient (440W of Solar on the roof) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 I’m with Nautical insurance, underwriter is vero. Island Time is Sept 88. So I got the request for “survey”. Read the request carefully. The broker (Nautical) sent the forms with the policy renewal. It’s NOT a real survey, and did not require out of water. It’s a condition report, and can be done by a boat builder, surveyor, (and maybe some others). I got a mate who’s a boat builder to complete it for me. It did NOT ask for a gas cert ( which would be a problem) just that it was in good order and complies with nz regs. Which it did at time of install (but not with current version - that’s ok, the gas regs are not retrospective) . Completed in an hour and accepted by Nautical. No real issue here. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Here is a quote from the standard: “This Standard includes a statement that its requirements do not apply retrospectively”. Page 4/114, AS/NZS 5601.2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 74 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Frank said: For those pondering a LiFEpo retrofit the battery, 3 KW Inverter, DC to DC charger, Solar Controller, and associated components are under the fwd end of the RH bunk in the photo. The space it occupies is modest and would easily be accommodated In a small yacht. The DC to DC charger is on the Bunk Front but has yet to Kick in (18 months ) as solar has been sufficient (440W of Solar on the roof) The DC-DC (30A?) is from FLA start battery to LiFePo4 right? What controls that kicking in? I have a victron DC-DC to do opposite as Li is charged from alternator at this stage and also have used it as I charge my Li at 14.2V via Argofet, which seems to keep the start battery up. Nice little induction hob! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ballystick 72 Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 40 minutes ago, Island Time said: I’m with Nautical insurance, underwriter is vero. Island Time is Sept 88. So I got the request for “survey”. Read the request carefully. The broker (Nautical) sent the forms with the policy renewal. It’s NOT a real survey, and did not require out of water. It’s a condition report, and can be done by a boat builder, surveyor, (and maybe some others). I got a mate who’s a boat builder to complete it for me. It did NOT ask for a gas cert ( which would be a problem) just that it was in good order and complies with nz regs. Which it did at time of install (but not with current version - that’s ok, the gas regs are not retrospective) . Completed in an hour and accepted by Nautical. No real issue here. My survey/condition report had to be an out of water survey carried out by a surveyor or boat builder but it wasn't as intensive as a pre-purchase survey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 95 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 It seems it all just over the place depending on insurer, underwriter and (probably) the clerk processing the paper. The Davidson I crew on had to do the gas (and replace most of it!) No survey or rig check. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LBD 128 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 At least I impressed my insurer when I sent them a note to say my Gas Califont, that was inside a cupboard inside the cabin, is now removed and is heating an out door bath on my sisters farm.😁 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 258 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 14 hours ago, LBD said: At least I impressed my insurer when I sent them a note to say my Gas Califont, that was inside a cupboard inside the cabin, is now removed and is heating an out door bath on my sisters farm.😁 This is an important point. It sounds like the example of the exploding boat was from using an LPG heater onboard. There may be many dodgy gas califonts that do pose a fire risk. I'm grappling with the OP's same issue. I need to get a 'condition assessment' for the Insurance co. There is a one line tick box that says "LPG installed to NZ Standards". My LPG install was done in 1985 and is un-altered. I have a 2kg bottle, regulator on bottle, a 2 to 3 m run of gas pipe direct to a marine gas stove. It is a flexible pipe and has been renewed over the life of the boat. The first point is, do I think it's a safe installation and am I happy using it, esp with my kids onboard? yes. I would be rather uncomfortable with a gas califont, and even more so with one installed inside the boat. The next question is, does it comply with the standards? It did when it was installed. I need to check, but I think the "turn gas off" sign has fallen off the wall in the galley, I might need to replace that to make it 'complaint', noting we are religious in turning the gas off. The bottle is in a separate on deck locker. It currently doesn't drain overboard, I can probably sort that fairly simply, which would increase safety. As an example of risk on the boat, we have a diesel heater but I've elected not to permanently install it. The risk of hot pipes etc in a 38 yr old wooden boat is something I'm not comfortable with. It is in a fire proof portable box that sits on deck when we use it (really good solution actually). Noting there is not a question or tick box on the poorly worded insurance form about diesel heaters. And in terms of other risk assessments, I have a carbon monoxide alarm onboard as well as a smoke alarm. Although that gave a false alarm at 1 am on our holiday cruise, and is currently in bits... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LBD 128 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I found out more about the composite gas bottles... they are certified in 85 countries including Australia...but not "Approved by Worksafe" New Zealand. They meet the NZ standards and international standards and Worksafe say they NZ will accept Gas Australia certification, so why not? Because some ignorant idiot at NZ Worksafe insists the bottles must be fitted with valves using a tapered thread (BSP or NPT) The composite bottles are manufactured with parallel threads and a seal, because tapered threads cause the neck to split open when tightened. Requiring tapered threads in such an application is outdated thinking. Tapered threads are not written into a standard, so it really must just be the opinion of one or two antiquated thinkers at worksafe. These are the aspects I see to LPG safety on a boat... at the risk of telling folk how to suck eggs... 1) A Sound quality instalation... the authorities stipulate a certified technician. 2) Always turn gas bottles off at bottle when not on boat. 3) An electric solinoid valve hooked up to a manual switch gas with indicator light... to be turned off from cabin when not in use... Position the light where it will annoy you in the evening so you will turn it off, you will test the system every morning when you cannot light the stove because you forgot to turn the gas on......This is probably more reliable than remembering to turn the gas off at the bottle after use. 4) Sealed, ventilated gas locker that drains OB 5) Gas detector. 6) Spray bottle of soapy water... to occasionally spray on connections (With the gas turned on) to check for leaks. 7) Natural ventilation setup that ensures air is drawn from the bilges. Nearly 50 years of working with assorted fuels and gasses has instilled a healthy respect. Although I am comfortable with my gas installation now the califont has been replaced with an engine water heated cylinder, I am still looking into the Wallas Diesel stove as a replacement. I will be measuring up when I am next on the boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 258 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 16 minutes ago, LBD said: I found out more about the composite gas bottles... they are certified in 85 countries including Australia...but not "Approved by Worksafe" New Zealand. They meet the NZ standards and international standards and Worksafe say they NZ will accept Gas Australia certification, so why not? That poses a very interesting question (well, interesting if you find dull things fascinating). If it complies with the relevant NZ standard, what have Worksafe got to do with it? From all my dealings with Worksafe, they never "approve" anything. The onus is always on you for everything. If it goes wrong, the Worksafe will prosecute. But they will never approve anything. They wont say or sign off that something is fine / up to spec / what ever language you want to use. From a due diligence point of view, if the composite bottles are widely approved, i.e. by 80 countries, and are approved in our closest and largest neighbour, of which we share the vast majority of standards and codes anyway (AS/NZS XXXX), then I would posit there is a compelling arguement you have met the due diligence requirements, and what is that other term? "Reasonable", as in reasonably competent, reasonably maintained etc. More-so if it actually complies with NZ standards. To reinforce your point LBD, was just chatting to the neighbour. They were rudely woken on the morning of Waitangi Day at anchor in Waiheke (Oneroa?) when the neighbours found their gas bottle had rusted through and had leaked gas. They threw the bottle overboard (but it floated) evacuated to my neighbours boat and the Coastguard along with a fire fighting crew etc all scrambled out etc, including calling all the volunteer firefighters on Waiheke via the old fashioned siren... So year, there is a compelling argument to get a composite gas bottle rather than comply with Worksafe nonsense and risk a snaffu like that example. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ballystick 72 Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 Gas fitters can issue a compliance cert that is suitable for the insurance company, it includes signs, new hose, auto shut off, gas pressure test, CO meter etc. it can be expensive depending on each installation Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Leftred 45 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Worksafe have no authority over a pleasure craft/non-commercial vessel. There may be some applicability to marinas and their risk management of gas on boats in their facility. My boat doesn't meet NZ regs, but it simply means my insurance doesn't cover any issue or accident caused by the gas system. Seems fair. I am baffled overall however with how uptight insurers are getting with long standing customers with well maintained or at least somewhat maintained boats. Yet there's zero requirements or restrictions on experience, training, qualifications, or any general suitability to be in command of a boat. I'm sure insurance companies do plenty of analysis of the risk they're holding and the nature of claims, but from what I've seen a majority of vessel-loss accidents are seaworthy vessels being driven onto rocks, bad weather, other boats, etc. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
khayyam 68 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 14 minutes ago, Leftred said: My boat doesn't meet NZ regs, but it simply means my insurance doesn't cover any issue or accident caused by the gas system. Seems fair. Presumably this means your insurance cover is not (technically) adequate for marina or haulout requirements? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.