Leg 5

[Megwyn 2]

I am a fence sitter

 

As a Skipper, it is imperative that you keep your boat and crew in one piece. You must sail to the conditions and within the boats limitations.

 

However

 

This is not the first time that yachts have raced in the Southern Ocean. The designers know all to well the conditions that can be expected down there. Therefore, the boats should be designed and built to suit the conditions, or not go there.

 

Would you buy or build a boat not fit for purpose, and then deliberately take it into conditions for which it is not designed?

 

Also - Frank Cammas has first hand experience of carbon boat limitations.

 

So. Yep. Fence sitter me.

[benny14 6]

I think that a little rich coming from Franck Cammas after Groupama's little (read could have been a lot worse than it was) indiscretion with their hull towards the end of the last leg...

[PaulR 3]

The designers know all to well the conditions that can be expected down there.

 

Not that many designers have been down there.

 

They have only "heard" about it, "seen" some video taken in daylight hours. Certainly designers can do mathmatical sums and test design strengths, but all that comes down to "that should be OK" in the end.

 

Now if hull failure was punnished by traditional capital means, or keel hauling and fleet floggings for minor problems, what would designers do then

 

Its the 35+ft / 10+m jumps off waves in the middle of a black night in a strong storm (not a mild gale) where you cannot see anything and get no warning and you can only rely upon hull strength and heaps of prayers at each jump to get you through.

 

In Sanya's rudder case, what about a skeg in front to protect the rudder Most yachting design revisited tried and proven methods in the past, but now there are stronger / lighter materials available.

[Clipper 346]

In Sanya's rudder case, what about a skeg in front to protect the rudder

 

You can't be serious?

[PaulR 3]

Once upon a time . . . . all good stories start this way . . .

 

Boats had a single rudder protected by a full length keel as per sailing ships.

 

Then yachts developed fin keels and skegs to protect and reduce the load on rudders

 

Then single spade rudders behind fixed fin keels

 

Then exposed un-protected twin rudders behind a fxed fin keel

 

Now exposed un-protected twin rudders with even the keels cantered out of the way.

 

Of course the rudders are bound to hit things sometime, more likely at night or in large seas, and at 30+knots someting stationery and quite small can do a lot of damage. It might not be a whale, dolphin, growler or a 20ft shipping container. Perhaps just a nice glass fishing float, steel 200 litre drum, a log, tree branch or even a discarded 20 litre plastic jerry can full of seawater floating on the surface.

[Clipper 346]

thanks for the history lesson old man

I was just thinking it unlikey you wuld find a skeg on a modern race boat,due to handling degradation and increased drag. Sure, we could make them bullet proof, but they'd be slow

[PaulR 3]

Just a little slower and just a source of drag, but the risks would be reduced.

 

It is all about speed vs risks and sometimes the pendulum needs to swing back a bit, especially for this type of high risk racing.

[Fogg 427]

thanks for the history lesson old man

I was just thinking it unlikey you wuld find a skeg on a modern race boat,due to handling degradation and increased drag. Sure, we could make them bullet proof, but they'd be slow

 

You could argue that Sanya must be finding a return to Tauranga is certainly degrading their performance right now.

[Fogg 427]

I think that a little rich coming from Franck Cammas after Groupama's little (read could have been a lot worse than it was) indiscretion with their hull towards the end of the last leg...

 

I thought that as well at first. But they claim it was impact damage from hitting something not just natural fatigue.

 

The proof will be whether they make it through the rest of the leg undamaged. If so, they'll be sounding pretty pleased with themsleves and no doubt talking up their management of the boat. But if they start to de-lam they'll be eating their words.

[Battleship 100]

Perhaps they could design stern mounted kick up rudders, I guess the challenge would be how much pressure would be required to make them kick up. Imagine them kicking up whilst screaming downwind at 30 knots that would be interesting.

 

These boats have certainly proven to be more fragile than I thought, I still contend that they have been through a hell of a lot of upwind pounding prior to this leg that may have created unseen damage.

Do they run a ultrasound or anything over the hulls to check for unseen damage at the stopovers? The Auckland stopover was to short to give them much time to check things thoroughly.

[Fogg 427]

Do they run a ultrasound or anything over the hulls to check for unseen damage at the stopovers? The Auckland stopover was to short to give them much time to check things thoroughly.

 

Apparently they did, yes. Well at least Camper did. Hence that was the (still unconfirmed) rumour that I heard that Camper had found some soft spots. But we heard nothing about it publically and off they went into the S Ocean. So I assumed it must have been a rumour with no fact behind it. Or else someone made a risk calculation and decided to go anyway?

 

We just won't know unless Camper reveal something more.

[Guest]

Wow

Can't believe that some people here want the next "Volvo" round the world race run in 200' + Clipper Ships! (Read with full keel and rudder skeg) Bloody funny!

 

In my humble opinion it is not the Southern Ocean that has destroyed these boats...

It was the plonker that booked a stopover in Sanya...

(And sold them a second or third hand dog that can't even complete a delivery from one port to another without breaking down, let alone get around the world)

It is just down right embarrassing for the sport?

 

Has it been the upwind work that has broken these boats? I'd guess so.

More than 2/3rds of the race pre Auckland has been well forward of the beam if not hard on the nose.

 

Another couple of comments:

 

Camper:

New design with the big swingy thing well forward, could this have an effect on the forward longitudinal structure?

Especially considering the upwind thrashing the boat has taken?

 

Telefonica

Sounds like skin delamination?

Could be any number of causes

Most obvious would be long term upwind thrashing

 

Groupama

Fwd hull delam last leg

Same as telefonica

 

AbuDabai

Broken down twice

Basically has been in delivery mode for many of the miles they have done

 

Puma

Wow, in one piece at this stage (hull)

 

Sanya

Unfortunately this boat is very second hand.

What actually caused the rudder / bearing failure?

Old age?

 

I would love to know how much coin in total went into the Sanya stop over and Sanya entry.

How critical is it to the race?

 

If the race is just to be a sponsors tour, maybe they should go down the onedesign track and make the boats cheaper and bullet proof.

(they wouldn't have to ship them through the pirate infested areas then )

[Megwyn 2]

 

Not that many designers have been down there.

 

They have only "heard" about it, "seen" some video taken in daylight hours. Certainly designers can do mathmatical sums and test design strengths, but all that comes down to "that should be OK" in the end.

 

Ok Paul - point taken.

Pictures and words are never the same as the real thing.

A bit like childbirth

 

 

 

Edited to fix errors that could not be fixed on my android!

[sow1ld 2]

I feel these boats are like formular one race cars. The quest for our right speed and big numbers to impress/attract sponsors fans & sailors has clouded the fact that this race is isnt a formular one race at all. This race is a dakkar rally. It's simply brutal. Sailing around the world is brutal. The ability to beam live pictures direct from the boats while great & may make everyone feel closer to home doesn't negate the fact that the ocean is a savage enviroment. I wonder if designers/organizers/sailors would feel secure in their works if the cameras etc where switched off? Slight over engineering across the board so that the boats have a better chance of staying together outweighs the slight speed penalty. Surely 5 boats out there now racing for the horn would be more exciting/interesting than the two boat race we have now.

The other issue that I think has been over looked is fatigue. The stop over in Auckland was far to short. The crews wouldn't have even recovered from the finish of the last leg, throw an in port race into the mix and before the start of the longest hardest leg the crews are already fatigued and thats when little things compound and lead to big mistakes

[Guest]

I wonder what would have happened if they removed the ice gates.

This would have allowed the boats to dive south and been able to run down wind better on the back of the low. Rather than havin g to stay north and pretty much beat or broad reach across the Souther ocean

[Guest]

Wow you all need to check out this vid of Telefonica

 

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Volvo-Ocea ... rmed/95334

 

Just shows how massive these waves really are. Makes a Volvo 70 look like a toy yacht.

 

Amazing!!!!!

[Guest]

Sailing - Volvo Ocean Race

Channel: TV One

Description: Mid-leg update from the Volvo Fleet as they head for Itajai, in Brazil, on Leg Five of the Volvo Ocean Race.Show Time: Sun 1 Apr 1330

[PaulR 3]

Wow you all need to check out this vid of Telefonica

 

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Volvo-Ocea ... rmed/95334

 

Just shows how massive these waves really are. Makes a Volvo 70 look like a toy yacht.

 

Amazing!!!!!

 

 

Perhaps but take another look at the horizon and the sky.

It's a rather pleasant day, sunny and great visibility with gentle CB clouds. The horizon is steady and the seas are flat. There is not breaking crests everywhere and the wind looks a lot less than 60+knots. Not really a lot of white water or spume and streaks at all.

 

Certainly they were hit at 3 decent crests breaking over the cockpit but the yacht was not jumped out of the water, dropping 10+m down a wave, nor did 2m of solid green come over the bows and come straight aft.

 

Perhaps these boats need more freeboard (higher sides) and better cockpit protection.

[PaulR 3]

A bit like childbirth

 

Edited to fix errors that could not be fixed on my android!

 

Yes indeed. Pain is best in the past

 

Luckily we humans tend to block out the bad memories and remember the good times more.

 

Until a video shows what it was like again.

 

Are you working on No. 5 yet

 

Just asking to be sure you know

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

it would appear that these boats are unsatisfactory for this particular leg they are not safe it is actually only the skill of the crew the crew that they have not lost another boat does no one remember Movistar ?

 

Wow you all need to check out this vid of Telefonica

 

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Volvo-Ocea ... rmed/95334

 

Just shows how massive these waves really are. Makes a Volvo 70 look like a toy yacht.

 

Amazing!!!!!

 

 

Perhaps but take another look at the horizon and the sky.

It's a rather pleasant day, sunny and great visibility with gentle CB clouds. The horizon is steady and the seas are flat. There is not breaking crests everywhere and the wind looks a lot less than 60+knots. Not really a lot of white water or spume and streaks at all.

 

Certainly they were hit at 3 decent crests breaking over the cockpit but the yacht was not jumped out of the water, dropping 10+m down a wave, nor did 2m of solid green come over the bows and come straight aft.

 

Perhaps these boats need more freeboard (higher sides) and better cockpit protection.