Leg 5

[Fogg 427]

He said solid laminate with stringers is better than sandwich in slamming regions. I'm pretty sure that's what they have on Virbac Paprec 3

 

For the less technical of us could you explain a bit more what this means? Ideally any links/pictures to help illustrate the point?

[chic014 0]

Solid laminate = solid carbon or glass with no core of honeycomb or foam.

 

Stringers = a beam running fore and aft that is glued/taped onto the solid laminate to give bending stiffness to the panel

 

Sandwich = Stiff skins on the outside of a lightweight core, typically foam or honeycomb. Gives good bending stiffness for low weight. But not good for local loads. Has a lot more possible failure modes than solid laminate.

[B00B00 310]

I seriously doubt any race boats have solid laminate anywhere other than under fittings or keel structures.

Alot of them have foam instead of nomex in slamming areas and probably high density foam, but i dont think solid laminate is an option really.

Foam comes in many different density's.

FnG should be able to shed some more light on this.

 

on another note, I have heard from a reliable source that telefonica actually have some very serious hull skin delamination.

[Guest]

this is getting scary.... i know they are all racing....but surely...the organisers must be getting the message now....and heads will be rolling. this sort of failure rate in any sport is unaccepatble...and i have been in some xtreme sports...(to finish first ...first you have to finish)

[chic014 0]

For those with a technical interest here is a paper by a friend and colleague of mine who works at the same research centre as me, that he wrote on hull slamming of VP3 designed by Guillaume Verdier. It talks about the solid laminate and stringers in the hull slamming region of VP3 that Verdier was a fan of at the HPYD public session. I seem to remember Gio Belgrano wasn't a fan of honeycomb in slamming regions, instead liked HD foam instead

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... PpMQc6yzdg

[Tubthumper 0]

There's a guy doing a PhD on slamming, lovely chap.

He didn't comment on the VO70's, but he was pretty adamant on which foam was the best. I have no recollection of what foam it was though!!

 

Solid laminate is heavy, Booboo's right, they want to keep these things light so they can win.

 

Oracle's right too though, to win you have to finish.

 

It's all about the compromise!

 

JK

 

edit: chic014 knows the guy.

[TomA 0]

That would be me chic014 pointed out the thread to me.

 

I don't think there is a hard and fast "which is better" rule for sandwich vs solid laminate each has it's benefits and disadvantages. There are definitely some cores which are far superior to others when it comes to dynamic loading. The core Camper uses in it's slamming regions is very good.

 

Verdier's point was that the current VOR70 rules are such that solid laminate are not a good option as you don't get the weight/ strength of your stringers included in the minimum panel specifications therefore an optimised solid solution (which will likely be minimum panel weight) will weight more than a sandwich solution (which is also likely to be close to the minimum specifications)

 

As for solid laminates being too heavy as both BOOBOO and Tubthumper have suggested, VP3 (Verdier designed IMOCA 60) uses it and is incredibly light. Most of the time it comes down to what designers are comfortable with.

 

Gio's comments re honeycomb are common amongst designers, there is little plasticity in kevlar honeycombs therefore failure can be pretty catastrophic.

 

One of the hardest things about ocean racing is establishing the loads the boat is likely to expect, this is definitely not trivial and is almost certainly is what has lead to the failures we have had so far on leg 5.

[Guest]

I have to chuckle that the updates on Sanya and that ....err....other broken Spanish Shoe sponsored boat on tracker, is titled "Breaking News". It's "breaking" all right!

[Fogg 427]

Where's Sanya? According to tracker she looks to be closing on Hicks Bay?

[Chewing Gum 17]

With all this talk of bulkhead problems with Camper - is this the watertight crash bulkhead in the bow that is coming away ?

If so and Camper was to have a hull failure similar to Sanya or Groupama would she be in danger of sinking ?

It does sound like there is some flexing of the hull if the longitudinals are also failing.

[Megwyn 2]

Where's Sanya? According to tracker she looks to be closing on Hicks Bay?

 

AC - I just updated the tracker on my laptop, and it shows Sanya just south of White Island.

 

M

[OYSTR 1]

Another chuckle watching the news just now and seeing the guys on Camper frying up a squid that had washed up on deck.

[rigger 47]

Where's Sanya? According to tracker she looks to be closing on Hicks Bay?

 

AC - I just updated the tracker on my laptop, and it shows Sanya just south of White Island.

 

M

 

Sanya due in Tauranga tonight.

Going to bridge marina, then to wharf to pull mast out then back to the marina, not sure on timing - sorry no pics I'm off to Whangarei in the morning.

[Guest]

They are currently under tow from a pilot vessel and are expected to be alongside the dock aorund 0630 UTC.

 

"We are now underway making 15k in pack up mode," MCM Andres Soriano reported.

 

"Sails are now de-battened, things are drying out on deck and we have had our last freeze-dried meal for a while.

 

"Although a bit sad and a bit strange, we don’t let that occupy our minds too much and just concentrate on moving forward with what we can do next."

 

"We look forward to seeing our shore team tonight and reuniting with friends and loved ones. The next few days will be packed with action as we prepare the boat to be loaded on a ship and you can be sure that we will keep you updated on the progress."

 

Skipper Mike Sanderson added: “We will make it happen and Team Sanya will be back in action before you know it.”

 

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/5 ... nears.html

[Battleship 100]

Sanya arriving now to dark for pics

[Guest]

LEADERS ON LAST STRETCH TOWARDS CAPE HORN

 

Earlier today, Groupama 4 (Franck Cammas/FRA) led PUMA Ocean Racing powered by BERG (Ken Read/USA) past the eastern ice waypoint and both teams are powering towards Cape Horn. At 1000 UTC, PUMA was hot on the heels of Groupama, 30.2 nautical miles (nm) astern, racing in 30-35 knots of wind. Meanwhile, Telefónica (Iker Martínez/ESP) is taking it extra cautiously as the team is anxious about the damage sustained to their bow. They hold third place, 301.2 nm behind the Franck Cammas and his men.

 

The leading pair, while racing as hard as they dare, are deliberately keeping the speeds manageable in a messy sea which is preventing very high numbers. Explaining Groupama’s speed compromise on this leg, helmsman/trimmer Laurent Pagés, said:

 

“The way we are sailing has been the same since we entered this part of the Southern Ocean, where the sea state is really bad. It’s what has allowed us not to break anything yet, as opposed to some of our competitors.

 

“It was good ‘speed compromise management’ – a compromise between our speed compared with our competitors and the condition of our boat and crew. We had a day where the sea became choppy again - boat breaking conditions - and we took our foot off the pedal.

 

“We indeed gave some miles to PUMA, who seem to have kept on more sail area and have taken 15 miles or so. But it’s all fine, there is no problem on board.”

 

Groupama are now down to latitude 55 degrees south, where the wind is heavy with snow and rain, and the wind freezes hands if on deck for more than an hour.

 

Brief spells of sunshine have made life more bearable, but below deck, it is freezing. Amory Ross, media crew member (MCM) with PUMA, reported icicles forming on the hatch.

 

“Working down below is like taking your office onto the porch, but in the middle of winter. Hands are too stiff to type and the trackpad on my laptop struggles to distinguish frigid fingertips from freezing air,” he wrote.

 

On board Telefónica, MCM Diego Fructuoso said that it is so cold that the four crew on watch for a two-hour period are taking it in turns to go below and have a hot drink during their watch before returning on deck for another stint.

 

Further back still, Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing (Ian Walker/GBR) has picked up speed and is making 17.6 knots towards the central ice waypoint, but is 1380 nm behind. Conditions have yet to heat up for the team, who are gliding downwind in weather reminiscent of Long Island Sound in the summer, but the team is very aware of how alone they are.

 

“We are the furthest you can get from land in any ocean, and if something very serious does happen, it’s all up to you,” wrote MCM Nick Dana.

 

CAMPER with Emirates Team New Zealand (Chris Nicholson/AUS) are still around eight days from Puerto Montt in Chile, around 2,000 nm ahead, where they will stop for repairs before re-joining the race. Sanya (Mike Sanderson/NZL) having suspended racing, has arrived safely in Tauranga, New Zealand. The boat will be shipped on Thursday to Savannah in the United States and be back in the race for the in-port race in Miami and Leg 7 to Lisbon.

 

Groupama and PUMA are about to encounter some of the worst weather so far on Leg 5 as a storm force depression moving eastwards gathers pace in their path. It will be another two days or so before they can point north and head towards the relative safety of warmer climes.

[Guest]

Audio time

 

Amery- Puma

 

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/as ... m_ross.mp3

 

Chris- Camper http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/as ... holson.mp3

 

Phil- groupama

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/as ... harmer.mp3

[Farrari 4]

It looks like Telefonica are heading to Argentina to make repairs to their delaminating bow.

 

Overall race leaders Team Telefónica will make a stop at the Argentine port of Ushuaia to repair bow damage and give themselves the best chance of holding on to a podium position in Leg 5.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/5649_Telefonica-to-make-pit-stop-in-Ushuaia.html

[Guest]

Groupama and PUMA are about to encounter some of the worst weather so far on Leg 5 as a storm force depression moving eastwards gathers pace in their path.

 

"Ding" "Ding" .......Round two ladies and gentlemen!

[Fogg 427]

Big official debate coming up I reckon about whether it's the boats or crews at fault for these failures.

 

Groupama's comments suggest the onus of responsibility is on the crew because he says:"The way we are sailing has been the same since we entered this part of the Southern Ocean, where the sea state is really bad. It’s what has allowed us not to break anything yet, as opposed to some of our competitors."

 

And presumably, if Groupama continues to make good progress and win this leg with no major failures they will continue to promote this view.

 

They are basically saying words to the effect that the new VOR70 boats are lighter, and potentially faster than the heavier old Whitbread 60s, but are also more delicate - hence have to be used correctly. And many of the other teams haven't worked out the correct balance yet i.e. crew/operator error.

 

Whereas the counter debate that it's the boats fault is nicely summarised below by one of the comments on the VOR site:

 

"Let's hope the organizer and the team use this experience of boats falling apart (after merely days, not weeks on end, of rough weather) to do some soul searching and work with outside consultants and university programs to figure out what's going wrong here. With the knowledge of this happening, it is simply irresponsible to send them of into the Southern Oceans in a future race, without having this resolved. It is also clear that the skippers don't have any idea what is causing this. Look at the confident comments made by the Camper skipper in the Leg 4 Documentary after the delay of the start in Sanya. He claimed his boat was "built for this". The point is not that he was wrong, the point is someone lead hem to believe he was right. That someone...better stands up, confesses and most importantly: starts working on fixing this."

 

Me? I am genuine undecided at this stage. Maybe I am slightly leaning towards the Groupama view i.e. the teams have designed and build themselves extremely powerful race cars that certainly can achieve a faster lap time than the previous cars - but they are a bit of a handful and most teams haven't worked out how to handle the power well enough to complete a lap without spinning off. Except Groupama who obviously have the Stig on their team.