Clipper 343 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 why should a senior member who crews pay the same as a owner? Why SHOULDN'T the crew pay the same as owner? After all, they are racing on the same boat in the same race, run by the same club. I actually wonder if fees came down, there may be more members joining, and hence a greater income for the club? Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 The crew dont pay the same as the owner. The owner tends to pay entry fee, maintenance, breakages etc. Realistically a yacht club membership for a crew member is a pretty cheap way of getting into a great sport. Buy a set of wet weather gear, and a club membership and your set to sail to your hearts content... Crew actually can get more sailing than the owners as they can sail on more than one boat? Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 The crew dont pay the same as the owner. The owner tends to pay entry fee, maintenance, breakages etc. I am fully aware of this! I was referring just to club memberships. Compared to PBOs, crew haver it sweet...... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 why should a senior member who crews pay the same as a owner? Why SHOULDN'T the crew pay the same as owner? After all, they are racing on the same boat in the same race, run by the same club. I actually wonder if fees came down, there may be more members joining, and hence a greater income for the club? Cos the owner gets all the rewards. Cos it is the owner that wants to race and requires a crew to for-fill his passion. Agree that if the fees came down then it would be more appealing. Cos crew can pick and choose (based on boat/cost) Owners cannot (UNLESS THEY PAY) Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Anyone keen to take a punt as to why short handed sailing is becoming so popular? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Anyone keen to take a punt as to why short handed sailing is becoming so popular? I have a go... 1. Cos Owners can be assholes 2. Cos Crew can be useless. 3. Money 4. Sailing is expensive. 5. two handed reduces the risk taking. 6. mainly because of the annoying trend where skippers kept loading on big crew numbers (in a breeze) to get more upwind speed and beat the opposition. It got to the stage that Y11, had 11 guys on. That made racing hard for the "Neville no mates" owner and the crew got bored being on "Stanchion adjustment" all race. In other words... most owners "reaped what they sowed" and most crew got what they deserved. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I think the only people to benefit from this will be YNZ via the clubs who offer a very cheap associate membership. For sure, crew racing on yachts downtown on a wed or fri night won’t join any of the downtown clubs. They’ll be joining Lake Pupuke BC, or whoever the cheap club happens to be. In my opinion this is a repeat of the stability cert via ORC. A process with no meaningful outcome that drives up the cost and effort of going racing. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mental outlook Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Maybe ask yourself this.... What would you do if there were NO yacht clubs to run the races? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Anyone keen to take a punt as to why short handed sailing is becoming so popular?- It saves a fortune in alcohol and pot noodles.- At least I get to win the odd argument. - No thoughts of shagging the crew to put you off your game? (note: only applies in very specific circumstances... very very specific) - No butt cracks staring back at you. - No fecking phones going off. - More room in the liferaft - You can sail naked and when you get your pubes caught in the mainsheet block it's only you who goes deaf from all the screaming. Compulsory won't work. As mentioned earlier if you say it's compulsory it'll just make the crew pools smaller. Some have good pools to draw from but a lot don't so even a small amount smaller will be a big deal on the startline. Link to post Share on other sites
Hurts 6 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 If there were NO yacht clubs to run the races, then we'd probably gather together and form some - that's how the existing clubs were created, though in the good old days it was much easier to appropriate some public land for a club and facilities. In Auckland (and probably the rest of the country too) I thought it was generally acknowledged that there are too many clubs maintaining too many facilities and running too many small events that all clash with each other. Rather than YNZ or whoever, trying to keep this situation going and casting about for new ways to extort (compulsory) money from the (dwindling numbers of) sailors to maintain said facilities. Some clubs should be allowed to die a natural death and the remaining clubs will survive (and some new ones start) and provide the correct mix of fees/facilities/events/bar prices/dancing girls etc that the "market" wants. If a club wants to try making crew be members and dropping some other prices then give it a go - it might be a winning strategy but I suspect Zoe is on a more likely path myself. Link to post Share on other sites
RushMan 31 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I have been told about a yacht club in Australia that has no club house, runs no races, no assets at all but membership is done online and you are then affiliated with Yachting Australia and can sail anywhere. Fees were about $40 per year, $35 to YA and the balance to the "club" Perhaps this would be a good business model for New Zealand. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 SSANZ and to a slightly lesser degree the NZMYC already provide that option Link to post Share on other sites
armchairadmiral 411 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Interesting majority view. The point about too many clubs is valid and relevant. But the days of a watering hole for after race carry - on as a major YC purpose is gone (sadly or gladly ).So for most racing a van backed up on the breakwater /wharf /beach or tame launch owner can do the start / finish .Protest, programme setting ,AGM etc in a hired local hall and the convivialities at a "Gluepot" reincarnation and ,voila,most of the the costs have gone and we can start "amateur" racing again.No empires for crusading tyrannical committee members (only some!) No need for all the overheads causing the financial dilemas.The racing elite,Olympians and anyone who wants it can have all the amenities and facilities they want but let them pay.There is no valid case for compulsory levies on people I invite to sail on my boat, - providing I pay race entry,membership and all fees relating to our participation Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Reading thru the posts one would get the feelimmg that people are not happy with the value they get from yacht clubs for the money they pay. What would be a good annual fee for boat owners, crew, etc...? If you can join a "paper yacht club" cheaply and this allows you to use the "affiliated club" rule to sail anywhere then this must be bad news for yacht clubs? Yacht club really need to ensure they are priced well to at attract owners, crew, new members... Does the YNZ fee cause pressure on yacht club fees? Or are clubs just not appealing enough anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Informal clubs have a relatively short life span so does relying on donations of time and resources from volunteers. Usually led by some kind of a crisis within the club, the members pile in with support. However it has a shelf life. Eventually they grow old and die, lose interest, feel its time for them to have some fun for a change, or the start boat you relied on gets sold or goes cruising. Case in point the Multihull Club, faced a crisis with the ending of coastal sponsorship coinciding with most of the original helpers getting too old. A few keen guys gave up sailing in it to hold the fort but it is already suffering a major lack of man-power and willingness of almost all the membership to step up. Last 2 years prior to the last race I did 10 hour shifts on the finish boat. Because I wanted to race this years race and nobody got off their arse or sacrificed some fun to have their turn we had to pay $600 to cover that job. Suggesting that you can gather in a pub to save money, well I'd like to see you find a pub within walking distance of Westhaven that didn't charge at least $3 a bottle more for a heinekken than any of the clubs in Westhaven especially if you twist the arm of a mate for his membership card before you go up to the bar. At that rate you'd pay for club membership in pretty quick time without having to cram in the back of some guys bedford van in amongst last months Macdonalds wrappers and old condoms. And have you seen the food at the Squadron (members bar or after-race buffet) it's awesome and half the price of any similar restaurant downtown and a view to die for. Parallels to swim/iron-man events don't apply as they are purely commercial events for a fickle bunch that will move on to something else in a few years, remember beach volleyball or indoor cricket? You don't see an ocean-swim club holding events 5 times a week like an active yacht club. Some small clubs can do it but they are very small. There used to be an Algies Bay Yacht Club break-away from Sandpit YC who just wanted the occasional cruise and sherry scoffing session, but they all got old and sold their boats or died or both A club like SSANZ does great and doesn't need a "clubhouse" as such because all their events are long, draw upon boats from all over the region and mostly finish in the middle of the night somewhere central. If a club exists today, it was probably due to someones or council's generosity a long time back. While there may be a good case for consolidation in some areas, each one lost will never return and no new ones will come along Link to post Share on other sites
Zoe 8 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Phil, the Tri clubs run training nearly every day year around, which all require planning and commitments, and the swim events are pretty regular, with some being run via masters clubs, and others, like the State Ocean Swim Series, as commercial events. They aren't such a fickle bunch really, and obviously a proportion come and go but I swim with people who have done them for years and years. The Tri clubs are cheaper to join for a year (around $50 incl affiliation) but then the user pays parts are more expensive. But my point really was that yachting is finding it hard to attract and retain new blood and to keep numbers up. I have worked with the big events and clubs, and volunteered for one small one. I know that with French Bay, which has about 150 members, we lose interested people all the time, because they turn up to our open day events etc all keen and then we expect them to cough up for a year's fees on the spot (not to mention the boat purchase). It's a big commitment. What has worked, is the adult sailing sessions, which mean they can pay a bigger fee ($150-200) for a few hours sailing with a coach, but no commitment. We work with a commercial sailing school on that and get a pretty respectable turnout, even on the muddy Manukau. Ultimately we obviously want members who can be self sufficient: buy their own dinghies, not need too much support, and willingly put their names on the roster. But those people are fewer and far between and I believe that if we had the means to move to a model where we could provide more support, a fleet of decent boats, and ask more of them in terms of their $$, but less in terms of their time, we'd have more participants overall. Obviously that comes with issues, but it's about looking outward at what people really want. Link to post Share on other sites
sailornz 0 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Follow the Golf Clubs example each player has to be a Member to Compete or pay a higher course fee. Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It is a sad state of affairs. Perhaps we need to go back in time and revist some of the old glory days of sailing. Back to the J classes with really wealthy owners who PAID their crews to sail with them. The rates were "threepence" a race and a "shilling" for a win. Mind you back then "ttthruuuppence" was a weeks wages for some, so with a little inflation adjustment, say $1,250 a race and $5,000 for a win may be more than welcome for a lot of crew members. That way ALL the crew will be able to join the "lower decks yacht club" and not infest the Owners ELITE Yacht Club. What's Wild Oats' crew rates like these days Link to post Share on other sites
AGC 0 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I have been told about a yacht club in Australia that has no club house, runs no races, no assets at all but membership is done online and you are then affiliated with Yachting Australia and can sail anywhere. Fees were about $40 per year, $35 to YA and the balance to the "club" Perhaps this would be a good business model for New Zealand. This is not quite right. Our club membership is $50 pa + $100 pa for Silver Card membership (Yachting Australia). You can participate in three club events without either Club or YA membership (you must first be a member of yacht club to get YA membership). After that the boat gets penalized 0.03 on it's handicap for each crew member that is in violation of that rule. Now the $100 YA membership is essentially insurance, it covers the cost of any injury you may sustain on club grounds/marina (don't ask if covers the bar area) or while racing in club or YA badge events. In reality I think it is actually fund raising for YA Olympic campaigns (my kiwi view). Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 What's Wild Oats' crew rates like these days I'm told she gets paid nothing and continually has to fend off dodgy sexual advances from the skipper. I'd expect the poor thing had the same issue when she sailed on Sundreamer with the same skipper Link to post Share on other sites
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