Long coastal and offshore race fleets

[Jon 360]

And they wonder why they can't get fleets

Sometimes you have to commit to things and even invest to make them grow

Don't think I'm just knocking here as I'm the RO for the only offshore race in NZ in 2017, sure it starts and finishes in Alk but if you haven't done the RNI you may think it's easier than sailing offshore

[waikiore 399]

yes watching last years island race start I was struck by how few normal Dad and Mum Kiwi boats were going, there is no place for them amongst the big boat race fleet anymore, never mind how time poor we all are, even the racey small boats were populated by sailmakers and  boatbuilders who kinda had to be there. 

[Clive 13]

I don't know the background to the above decision so won't comment on that but the following comment does relate to this race as well.

 

I've been away for a while ... What decision?

[MarkMT 68]

The Kerikeri-Vava'u race was called off. The discussion originated on another thread - http://crew.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic/14092-kerikeri-to-vava%E2%80%99u-yacht-race-2017/?do=findComment&comment=180002

[Island Time 1,235]

IMO the organisers underestimate the time and $ commitment it takes to do an international race from NZ. To meet the safety regs it's easy to spend $50k or more on a boat over 10 years old. Plus time away from earning, and living expenses, flights for crew changes etc. To do a race from NZ to the islands, with only a month or 6 weeks away could easily total 70k or more. There is no chance of getting that $ back, so you better get a lot from the race! There simply aren't many around with the time, $, and inclination to do these races. IMO.

[jonathan 4]

That pretty much sums up keelboats at the moment

[ScottiE 174]

that sound a bit defeatest.  You're essentially saying - don't even bother testing the water to see if there is interest.  At least KCC tried to get something off the ground - its not their fault that the interest is no longer there.

[Island Time 1,235]

That's true Scottie, but that's how I see it. That's also why, again IMO, that ICA get more - it's people, who are new to offshore,often under the misconception that it's safer in a fleet, and who are retired or taking extensive leave, or a break between jobs. It's (generally) the younger sailors who want to race, and few of them have the means to do this, unless crewing.

No idea what the solution is.

[Black Panther 1,586]

I tried really hard to talk myself into doing the new Plymouth - Mooloolaba race. eventually the cost killed the idea. It got up over $2,000 per day to do something I could do quite easily on my own. And my boat is already damn near cat 1.

I'm with IT if he  is defeatist, I'm defeated - go cruising.

[Clipper 343]

BP, if you ate already cat 1, where are the costs?

[jonathan 4]

the solution is small boat racing

470's etc,   young people don't have dosh for bigger or moored in marina boats

too busy saving 20% deposit for a house

[raz88 96]

I think the costs mentioned above are maybe on the high side.  If you look at the fleets for coastal classic etc there are plenty of boats (particularly in divs 1,2 and 3) that are already at cat 3 and could be got up to cat 1 without massive cost.

 

Somehow the fleets for recent fiji/noumea races seem to have become limited to big fast boats, it used to attract boats like 1020s and young 11s, lotus 10.6s etc, but people seem reluctant to take that sized boat offshore now.  I don't know if it's that people think that the kiwi cruiser racers are all old and not capable any more, or whether everyone's got used to the idea of having bigger boats, but these days it seems like you could enter a quick 40 footer and still be last.  That then makes a chicken and egg problem where those boats don't look at entering because there's no competition for them.  Not much incentive to enter a fleet made up of TPs and grand prix racers in your lotus 10.6...

[Jon 360]

Ok so now that my comments on the other race has been pushed into this thread I'll add to them.

We (SSANZ) don't take expressions of interest and promote them as entries

We open our long races and you pay your money to secure a spot, which we limit in number, yes some come and go but it builds commitment early on.

Other clubs put up names of boats that are distant possiblities in the hope it will attract others but imho all it does is attract other distant possiblities

Also I wasn't meaning the whole project is as difficult to do a RNI but comparatively the sailing two handed with a lee shore for 1200nm is just just as difficult if not more so then you compare the yachts that come from the central region that do this twice.

 

Consequently we will run another Round New Zealand race as soon as we get enough commitment

Probably not 2017 by current indications but possibly 2018

This race is much harder than any race to the islands, what with sailing into the southern ocean and 2500nm, sure it may be in 4 legs but leg 2 from Mangonui is almost as far as either Fiji or Tonga

There is a reason why only 14 yachts have ever raced around NZ

 

As for cost I've heard of one yacht spending 60k on just sails for the RNI

The cost difference between Cat 2 and Cat 1 is hundreds not thousand

[Clipper 343]

Jon, I thought there a RNZ pencilled in for 2018 at the moment? Do you mean to push this out to 2019? (Which would be good...)

[raz88 96]

BP, if you ate already cat 1, where are the costs?

 

We got ours to cat 1 to do the tasman last year.  Obviously it depends on where you're starting from, but if you're doing things like coastal classics etc anyway then you have cat 3 so should have a raft, lifejackets, harnesses, storm sails, decent navigational equipment, etc.  The raft may need a repack (there's an inshore/offshore pack normally available), and you need a bigger first aid kit, sat phone/ssb, additional flares and a pile of spares that you wouldn't normally need if you were closer to help.  Then lots of little jobs which most on here could do themselves - we had to beef up the foredeck to create a strong point for a removable inner forestay, and add some more harness attachment points in the cockpit, and some additional tankage, but none of that was especially costly.

 

Assuming you're prepared to do some work yourself, and assuming you start from a boat already with cat3 which is set up to a reasonable standard, I'd expect to be able to get to cat 1 for around 10-15k.  Obviously for the fiji race there's then further costs mentioned above by IT and others around crew flights etc, and you'd easily blow that out of the water if you decided you needed a couple of new sails, but I don't see that as a one off expense related to that particular race - you'll no doubt keep using the sails after the race is done and would probably have had to buy them at some stage anyway if you need them.

[Battleship 100]

I personally don't think getting the boat up to category is the reason there isn't much interest these days, not a huge difference between cat2 and cat1 it is more the time commitment.

 

For a pacific island race you have to then get the boat home again which is no mean feat, with the RNI you finish in Auckland which although quite a haul for the Welly boats is less of a logistical problem when compared to Fiji or Tonga for instance.

[Jon 360]

Jon, I thought there a RNZ pencilled in for 2018 at the moment? Do you mean to push this out to 2019? (Which would be good...)

Yes, I lost a year somewhere, must have been off sailing around the world, either physically or mentally

 

Because it's M2O in 18 if we had the numbers for 19 we would look at it, wouldn't be 20 as that's RNI year again

We would want 12 paid entries six months out to make RNZ happen, but ya never know what will come out of this RNI, if we get another 2011 race it will make it hard but if it's all down wind at 15kts it could be different, but then again 2011 lead into the 2012 RNZ, so disappointment can lead to commitment also.

[Clipper 343]

Yes, I lost a year somewhere, must have been off sailing around the world, either physically or mentally

 

Because it's M2O in 18 if we had the numbers for 19 we would look at it, wouldn't be 20 as that's RNI year again

We would want 12 paid entries six months out to make RNZ happen, but ya never know what will come out of this RNI, if we get another 2011 race it will make it hard but if it's all down wind at 15kts it could be different, but then again 2011 lead into the 2012 RNZ, so disappointment can lead to commitment also.

 I'd be stoked if it were 19, might have a chance of getting sorted for that. 

[Black Panther 1,586]

Someone asked about xtra costs over going for a cruise

 

$1000 entry fee

$1000 med kit

x? for a new drogue

Sat phone

Extra cost to enter Aus in Mooloolaba (not a port of entry)

Parking in Mooloolaba (we normally don't go to marinas but not a lot of optoions there)

Raft inspection

More solar panels. (must have two methods or charging).

And the killer  for me was the LZ curve nonsense. The designer is dead so I'd have to pay someone else to produce the curve for me, although they did offer to tip the boat over instead. neither option appealed.

 

I was also looking at a new sail but as pointed out that could be amortised, but what's the point of doing the course if you aren't sailing at your best? If cruising I prefer to go slow.

 

I've probably missed some, but I got to $20k over and above the trip I did last year to Fiji for fun. For a 10 day race that's $2k per day just to go for a sail in my own boat.

[Black Panther 1,586]

A while back I suggested collecting a fleet of "old" nz boats for peanuts and building them into a one design fleet for cheap short handed one design offshore racing.

 

I used the Cav 32 for an example. Why? coz they are cheap as chips and a lot getting past their use by date so ready for a revamp.

 

Buy 10 of them, maybe 25-30k each. Gut them and make them as one design as possible. Stick in enough interior to make them habitable at the other end for a bit of a cruise and no paying for a hotel. Buy 10 rigs (put the extra 3 ft back on it makes them a different boat. ) 10 sets of identical sails (main, 1,2,3 and two assymetrics plus storm sails. You don't need more, this is exactly what the competition is carrying).

Then race two or three handed to Fiji, Mooloolaba, Noumea - whatever blows your skirt up.

Cheap, one design short handed racing . either 10 owners , or someone brave enough to put them together as a charter fleet. (If the YC's won't take the entry to existing races, run your own in parallel - SH anyone?)

 

Am I the only one who likes the idea?