grantmc 59 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Just wondering what others think about life jackets. I know it’s been knocked around here over the years, but is there still reluctance for compulsory wearing of jackets? I raised the topic at my rag n stick club a year ago at the annual Safety meeting. Every week I see many crews going round the cans without jackets and we’ve had the odd incident including m/wobs. As a Club I felt we should set an example, but the proposal was knocked down very quickly and I was left wondering why. The rules too as to what exactly a life jacket is and the (optional) features included make what seems to me no sense. For example crotch straps, light, mouth/splash cover, whistle etc. So is it time for a law change? Should sailing/boating clubs include rules for compulsory wearing (especially when racing)? What do you think? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clive 13 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 "So is it time for a law change?" No thank-you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,675 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I have them on board, I'll never stop someone wearing one, I expect someone to wear one if I tell them to (I am the skipper). What else is necessary? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 358 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Should sailing/boating clubs include rules for compulsory wearing (especially when racing)? What do you think?[/font][/size] In many races, such as soloiq or Ssanz races they are compulsory, at least for multis with no lifelines anyway. Hell no to a law change, in 5 knots and sun, no way in hell in putting one on, unless in above races Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,675 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 http://www.sailfeed.com/2015/10/to-wear-or-not-to-wear-thats-the-question/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 108 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 One of the more refreshing things I've read recently is Jimmy Cornell's take on it . Someone might have a link. I forget where I read it. The last thing we need is more jumped up power crazy enforcers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Every week I see many crews going round the cans without jackets and we’ve had the odd incident including m/wobs. So is it time for a law change? What benefits do you see from a law change? I'm interested in your perception as to why life jackets are so important, and what is wrong with crews in inshore waters (i.e. going around the cans) without life jackets on. There are a number of situations where wearing a lifejacket increases risks and hazards. Life jackets are only of benefit if you are in the water, but do not address any aspects of not going into the water. They can increase tripping hazards (by obstructing a view of your feet) and can be cumbersome to move around in quickly. I believe the biggest risk to individuals, and this applies to health and safety in industry as much as recreational sailors, is the removal of the requirement to think for yourself, assess hazards as they arise and take appropriate mitigating measures. the compulsory wearing of anything (hard hats, hi-viz, life jackets, safety glasses) removes any need to assess a situation and respond to hazards. That is a very very dangerous situation to create. Refer the law of unintended consequences. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grant 44 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 What benefits do you see from a law change? I'm interested in your perception as to why life jackets are so important, and what is wrong with crews in inshore waters (i.e. going around the cans) without life jackets on. There are a number of situations where wearing a lifejacket increases risks and hazards. Life jackets are only of benefit if you are in the water, but do not address any aspects of not going into the water. They can increase tripping hazards (by obstructing a view of your feet) and can be cumbersome to move around in quickly. I believe the biggest risk to individuals, and this applies to health and safety in industry as much as recreational sailors, is the removal of the requirement to think for yourself, assess hazards as they arise and take appropriate mitigating measures. the compulsory wearing of anything (hard hats, hi-viz, life jackets, safety glasses) removes any need to assess a situation and respond to hazards. That is a very very dangerous situation to create. Refer the law of unintended consequences. I'm sure there are a few yachties that can't see their feet without wearing a lifejacket, should they not be allowed to sail as they are a hazard to themselves? I think with the range of jackets available now we should be able to move past the "too clumbersome" argument as well. Why are lifejackets important? Because in the 'round the cans' situation if someone ends up in the water they probably weren't planning on it and especially for those sailing in places further south, the shock of going into cold water, full dressed can distract you somewhat from the important business of keeping head above the water. I'm not advocating for compulsory wearing, however anytime the subject comes up I think some of the "anti-wearing" supporters are leading with outdated arguments that don't always hold water . (that's general comment and not having a go at Fish) and I agree about unintended consequences being a right pain to deal with. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I'm sure there are a few yachties that can't see their feet without wearing lifejacket, Classic! So I wear an inflatable jacket with crotch straps, knife, spray hood, and also carry a PLB on my person. On occasion, the crotch strap can catch on the winches as I step over them to get out of the cockpit and move up the side deck. I'm not talking about bulky foam lifejackets here. The point is that mandatory use of a safety item (lifejacket) doesn't mean improved safety. It is obviously intended to improve safety, but doesn't actually mean it will, and doesn't mean that other hazards aren't introduced due to that safety item. Don't get me wrong, I fully support wearing lifejackets, but in appropriate situations. I always wear mine while two handed racing (don't trust the owner to be able to pick me up again). A law is a cumbersome tool and cannot identify or define 'appropriate' situations. In this context, a law can do more harm than good, as people believe they are safe, as they are complying with all laws by wearing a lifejacket, but go out in a 12 foot tiny into a 40 knot sou-wester with 5 guys on board. That is unfortunately a common scenario. All the life jacket does is assist with body recovery. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grant 44 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Classic! So I wear an inflatable jacket with crotch straps, knife, spray hood, and also carry a PLB on my person. On occasion, the crotch strap can catch on the winches as I step over them to get out of the cockpit and move up the side deck. I'm not talking about bulky foam lifejackets here. The point is that mandatory use of a safety item (lifejacket) doesn't mean improved safety. It is obviously intended to improve safety, but doesn't actually mean it will, and doesn't mean that other hazards aren't introduced due to that safety item. Don't get me wrong, I fully support wearing lifejackets, but in appropriate situations. I always wear mine while two handed racing (don't trust the owner to be able to pick me up again). A law is a cumbersome tool and cannot identify or define 'appropriate' situations. In this context, a law can do more harm than good, as people believe they are safe, as they are complying with all laws by wearing a lifejacket, but go out in a 12 foot tiny into a 40 knot sou-wester with 5 guys on board. That is unfortunately a common scenario. All the life jacket does is assist with body recovery. yep, that I agree with entrily 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,675 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Knowing I was sailing in cold water would affect my decision whether or not to tell the crew to don a lifejacket. No need for a law. Also I think the stats are misleading. If you break them down you'll see that drownings off sailboats over (i think ) 25 ft are pretty rare. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Completely opposed to laws about this. If clubs and classes have concerns, that's what SI's are for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Dunno how many of you have slipped on a wet deck "going round the cans". I have. Now I wear a PFD (with a crotch strap).They're much more comfortable than in the past, so less excuse not to wear them. I insist on my guests wearing them in the dinghy too when we row out to the boat.I saw the Swedish 49er teams practising at Okahu Bay the other day, and apart from leaving their trolleys blocking the public ramp, there was at least one with a helmet on. Good.Get with the times. Some of the comments here remind me of people resisting the introduction of seat belts in cars.And the suicidal guy in the sailfeed link? What can I say? This. http://kmccready.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/lifejackets-lifejackets-and-sissies/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,675 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 If I was sailing a 49er I would wear a lifejacket, and maybe a helmet if it were warranted (never sailed a 49er so don't know). But on my boat I have never worn one, possibly never will. I do not consider myself unsafe. Just sensible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clive 13 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 If I was sailing a 49er I would wear a lifejacket, and maybe a helmet if it were warranted (never sailed a 49er so don't know). But on my boat I have never worn one, possibly never will. I do not consider myself unsafe. Just sensible. I wouldn't. I like to be able to swim out of a situation - if you have been caught under a boat you'll understand why. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Dunno how many of you have slipped on a wet deck "going round the cans". I have. ] That's what life lines are for. And toe rails. Sounds like you would have been better off with appropriate footwear, which would have more effectively addressed the risk of slipping than the life jacket. There is no parallel between seat belt laws and a law for cumpulsory wearing of life jackets. Can you state the benefit of a compulsory life jacket law? Will it reduce hospital admissions? Will it reduce severity of injuries from motor vehicle crashes? Will it improve cancer survival rates? Will it reduce domestic violence? Will it improve human rights? Will it improve economic growth? Will it improve the tax take? Of all the things our law makers and public servants could spend their time on, a law for compulsory wearing of life jackets doesn't appear to be a priority. Laws like this distract our government from addressing issues of real importance. Think small government. Can anyone, including the original poster, describe the benefits of a compulsory law for wearing life jackets? (Which is different from the benefits of wearing life jackets) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 There is a variety of opinions expressed here, but the commonality throughout is that to wear or not to wear comes down to the common sense of the individual or skipper. And this is where in my opinion it is best left. Unfortunately, NZ is not without its fair share of morons - someone referred earlier in this thread to a bunch of blokes without lifejackets in an overloaded tinny heading out for a fish in a freshening sou'wester. Also unfortunately, our lawmakers pitch their laws to the lowest common denominator. Laws around safety are generally enacted to try and protect the well being of idiots, and I fear that we are all going to suffer for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armchairadmiral 411 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 This correspondence clearly outlines the two positions. One side wants to dictate to the other which wants to use their brains.A lot of people who die in water don't drown.It's exposure that does the damage and all the lifejacket does means it's easy to find the body. As others said lifejackets are not a panacea to all situations at sea and sometimes exacerbate a situation (getting out from under for example).The pointy heads, know alls and do gooders should mind their own business ,wear their lifejackets and leave the rest of us alone. But as Regional Councils etc need to justfy their existence expect constant attack on our personal freedoms and the fees and fines they will try to generate and lifejackets are a starting point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,675 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 BTW, were I sailing regularly in cold water I would choose a float coat as worn in the PNW over the "standard" lifejacket by a country mile. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Oliver 155 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 From KMM - "But I will and do wear a serious lifejacket, and insist others do as well, when the situation dictates it." What happens repeatedly is that even experienced sailors become pre-occupied & busy when conditions go bad, and forget to don PFD's. Full disclosure - Have to admit I have done it myself. Sorry I cannot give you examples from NZ, but that is what happened in recent US races in Mobile Bay, and twice in Lake Erie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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