Do cat one inspections do any good?

[armchairadmiral 411]

Harry Pope used to tell crews at briefing for offshore that if you are contemplating needing rescue then don't go. (My words paraphrasing)

[Jon 412]

I’m planning on taking crew that have current ASS cert for the trip up

I’ve done the course twice now and I’m a first response responder

Will go with 4 so will need two with certs, but if I go with 3 then only 1, does this make us safer ?

[Kevin McCready 83]

I did the liferaft in the pool training which was useful.

 

I also did the five day course First Aid at Sea STCW95 at the Maritime School. The presenter was the brilliant paramedic Brent Palmer and I learned about Celox (powdered shell which stops bleeding instantly), the Bone Injection Gun (for putting in an IV drip), inflatable splints, and the artificial airway (i-gel LMA Laryngeal Mask Airway - a tube you just shove down an unconscious person’s throat which is specially designed to separate airway and oesophagus). We also practiced injecting and sewing on pigs trotters rather than use a skin stapler. Learning how to handle a dislocated shoulder was also great and CPR for the untrained is now 100 compressions per minute and worry about the breathing afterwards (having cleared the airway first of course). I’d recommend the course to all.

 

And I recommend a First Aid kit with the above gear in it.

 

And speaking of rescue, if you sail across the bigger oceans you are out of distance of rescue helicopters.

[Berend de Boer 2]

Storm sails. Have leisure furl main, furling Genoa and heavyweather Jib that has soft hanks to removable inner forstay. Plus large diesel (110 hp)

 

As I understand it the inspector is pretty flexible as long as he can see you have thought through the issue, and you can explain your alternative plan. I.e. you need to address the topic, not do it exactly as it is written. But let us now.

[Fish 0]

I’m planning on taking crew that have current ASS cert for the trip up

I’ve done the course twice now and I’m a first response responder

Will go with 4 so will need two with certs, but if I go with 3 then only 1, does this make us safer ?

That is a good example of the regulations driving less safe practices.

[Fish 0]

I did the liferaft in the pool training which was useful.

 

I also did the five day course First Aid at Sea STCW95 at the Maritime School. The presenter was the brilliant paramedic Brent Palmer and I learned about Celox (powdered shell which stops bleeding instantly), the Bone Injection Gun (for putting in an IV drip), inflatable splints, and the artificial airway (i-gel LMA Laryngeal Mask Airway - a tube you just shove down an unconscious person’s throat which is specially designed to separate airway and oesophagus). We also practiced injecting and sewing on pigs trotters rather than use a skin stapler. Learning how to handle a dislocated shoulder was also great and CPR for the untrained is now 100 compressions per minute and worry about the breathing afterwards (having cleared the airway first of course). I’d recommend the course to all.

 

And I recommend a First Aid kit with the above gear in it.

 

And speaking of rescue, if you sail across the bigger oceans you are out of distance of rescue helicopters.

Yes I've done these courses (not STCW95), and they are great.

The issue is needing to do them every time you go offshore.

They expire at about the same frequency people get to do a big trip, hence making it very expensive and tedious to re-sit, for no additional benefit.

 

And this bullshit that you need to re-do first aid every year cause the CPR has changed, what was so wrong with the CPR taught last year?

[Fish 0]

As I understand it the inspector is pretty flexible as long as he can see you have thought through the issue, and you can explain your alternative plan. I.e. you need to address the topic, not do it exactly as it is written. But let us now.

Some items are mandated, or otherwise seen as indispensable.

The issue is planning a big trip, the time, effort and outlay of preparing the boat, to be relying on the whim of an inspector for items you have decided you don't need.

[Jon 412]

Pricing up storm sails now, don’t need them for 8 months so have asked for a downtime price.

When I get the shock I’ll decide which way I jump next.

 

Have priced rafts from S@S but will look at all options closer to the time. Want a hard shell raft to mount on stern rail but the new ones don’t fit my cradle so may go with a valise and keep it at home except for bigger trips.

[Island Time 1,294]

As Ive said before. Select your cat 1 inspector early, and talk to them about your intentions. That way no surprises when your nearly ready to go. In my experience they have been reasonable, and not to list based. The list is used if they feel the boat or crew is not ready, as a way out.

There is a lot of crap and third hand "knowledge" around about people being prevented from leaving, but this is a very rare occurrence.

Generally the cat one inspector is, at a minimum, another set of experienced eyes looking over your boat. That's not a bad thing, IMO.

[Black Panther 1,767]

As Ive said before. Select your cat 1 inspector early, and talk to them about your intentions. That way no surprises when your nearly ready to go. In my experience they have been reasonable, and not to list based. The list is used if they feel the boat or crew is not ready, as a way out.

 

 

But why should I have to do that? Particularly if the numbers say it doesn't help anyway.

[Black Panther 1,767]

And I have been known to leave on very short notice.

[Fish 0]

As Ive said before. Select your cat 1 inspector early, and talk to them about your intentions. That way no surprises when your nearly ready to go. In my experience they have been reasonable, and not to list based. The list is used if they feel the boat or crew is not ready, as a way out.

There is a lot of crap and third hand "knowledge" around about people being prevented from leaving, but this is a very rare occurrence.

Generally the cat one inspector is, at a minimum, another set of experienced eyes looking over your boat. That's not a bad thing, IMO.

But the question is to the need for or benefit of CAT 1, not how to get it.

The facts show a higher proportion of boats with CAT 1 need rescueing compared to boats without CAT 1, when traveling the same waters, i.e. leaving NZ. These facts are over a long time period, 12 years, not just one aberration.

The facts are showing the logic behind needing CAT 1 is wrong.

 

I think it goes right back to basic psychology. "an official has said I'm safe, therefore I'm safe" as opposed to personal responsibility "gee, its a big ocean out there, am I really up to this voyage, what gear do I need with me, is every aspect of my boat in tip top, A1, bombproof condition, checked, packed and ready to rock and roll?"

 

IT, you said the occasions MNZ actually stops anyone departing cause they don't have CAT 1 is very very small. Therefore, it would appear this is a substantial compliance burden on the majority, for very little real benefit / reduction in harm.

[Black Panther 1,767]

One more thing. After wading through it all I had a strong feeling at least half those rescues were unnecessary. That is they would have made it home without help had they tried a bit more. A broken window is not enough reason to press the red button.

[Island Time 1,294]

Perhaps. But you don’t know how many boats leaving NZ were on their 1st ocean voyage, or how many were improved by either the cat 1 requirements, or the experience of the inspector before they left. For many, and ocean voyage is not what the expect, cat 1 or not.

Personally I’d like to see the cat 1 system as advisory rather than compulsory.

[Frank 173]

1/4 of nz departures results in 1/3 rescue why? inexperienced crews/skippers due to yachts being inexpensive,which leads to my thinking that every man thinks he can go offshore with no worries,just need to get cat1 and away little or no sailing experience.

 

We have all heard the stories of,mate she was a cake ride to fiji etc

Would I contemplate going offshore in my own vessel without going with an experienced crew/skipper first?NO

 

Perhaps there needs to be some form of bond/insurance to cover rescues?no I do not think so gives the airforce something to do and lets the navy put in to practice what they have been taught

"Would I contemplate going offshore in my own vessel without going with an experienced crew/skipper first?NO" .......Talk to Matt of IT

[Frank 173]

As Ive said before. Select your cat 1 inspector early, and talk to them about your intentions. That way no surprises when your nearly ready to go. In my experience they have been reasonable, and not to list based. The list is used if they feel the boat or crew is not ready, as a way out.

There is a lot of crap and third hand "knowledge" around about people being prevented from leaving, but this is a very rare occurrence.

Generally the cat one inspector is, at a minimum, another set of experienced eyes looking over your boat. That's not a bad thing, IMO.

Sound advice from the experienced, IMHO.

[ScottiE 174]

Can someone point me to where the actual statistics described above are published please.

 

Never mind -found it. BP I reckon you need to write a white paper on this and publish it here as well as submitting it to YNZ if you want to try remediate the system.

[Jon 412]

Already selected

Been talking on and off since we got back

We wont leave without it, but need to work around a couple of things that may save me 10k ish that won’t make us any safer imho.

For racing offshore I don’t believe there should be any grey areas

However in a cruising boat that knocks off 200nm days departure planning is probably the most important thing.

[Priscilla II 450]

Care to expand on the unnecessary 10k cost.

[Island Time 1,294]

Not too many cruisers commonly do 200 mile days.

Some do though, late model large vessels in particular, and a few multis.