Niagra v Caulerpa

[Steve Pope 253]

The Niagara (ship) has re-appeared in the news once again, sunk in the 2nd world war in the Hauraki gulf (by a German mine) It was heading for Canada and was fully bunkered. Read "Stuff" article for much more detail. I would suggest that this is actually something that the Govt, NRC, ARC etc. could actually do something about, rather than spending their time pursuing (us). by doing a Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, in the form of Caulerpa and fan worms.

[CarpeDiem 529]

I find the story of this ship fascinating.  An ocean liner passenger ship sunk by the Germans just off the Hen and Chickens... like wtf!? 

This is a great book on the story, including the recovery of the secret cargo. 

https://www.seatech.co.nz/products/deep-water-gold-by-keith-gordon

Deep Water Gold is the complete story of RMS Niagara, a famous Pacific liner sunk in 1940 with eight tonnes of gold bullion off the Northland Coast of New Zealand by the German raider Orion.

If you're ever visiting the restaurant at Tutukaka Marina there's a big photo on the wall of the dive bell they used to lower the divers some 100m to the bottom and some physical parts of the boat that were recovered over the years. 

 

[K4309 401]

3 hours ago, Steve Pope said:

The Niagara (ship) has re-appeared in the news once again, sunk in the 2nd world war in the Hauraki gulf (by a German mine) It was heading for Canada and was fully bunkered. Read "Stuff" article for much more detail. I would suggest that this is actually something that the Govt, NRC, ARC etc. could actually do something about, rather than spending their time pursuing (us). by doing a Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, in the form of Caulerpa and fan worms.

Ah, but oil from the Niagra is not a biosecurity incursion. So Biosecurity NZ aren't responsible.

And its nothing to do with Primary Industries, so the Ministry or Primary Industries aren't interested either.

Fairly sure that NRC aren't responsible UNTIL oil leaks. Until then, the oil is the responsibility of the ship owner. Oh, and as it was sunk in an act of war, insurance wont cover it.

So someone needs to trot off and find the ships owner, and convince them to salvage the oil before its too late. But as you see, our fractionated and siloed bureaucracy wont deal with it.

 

PS, I read somewhere ages ago, last time this came up, that the oil is supposed to be wax like, or very thick, and any attempt to salvage it is likely to substantially increase the risk of a disaster. Esp if they heat it to get it viscous. I think they are hoping it will just stay a guey blob on the bottom of the sea.

[eruptn 105]

I remember at the time of the Rena grounding looking for information about the impacts of that sinking-there must have been some? Didn’t find any at the time.

[Steve Pope 253]

7 hours ago, K4309 said:

Ah, but oil from the Niagra is not a biosecurity incursion. So Biosecurity NZ aren't responsible.

And its nothing to do with Primary Industries, so the Ministry or Primary Industries aren't interested either.

Fairly sure that NRC aren't responsible UNTIL oil leaks. Until then, the oil is the responsibility of the ship owner. Oh, and as it was sunk in an act of war, insurance wont cover it.

So someone needs to trot off and find the ships owner, and convince them to salvage the oil before its too late. But as you see, our fractionated and siloed bureaucracy wont deal with it.

 

PS, I read somewhere ages ago, last time this came up, that the oil is supposed to be wax like, or very thick, and any attempt to salvage it is likely to substantially increase the risk of a disaster. Esp if they heat it to get it viscous. I think they are hoping it will just stay a guey blob on the bottom of the sea.

My thought was, purely and simply, here is something that we can actually do something about. Re the oil being wax like, there have been many reports over the years of an oil film on the surface, nah its just wax, Yeah right!!

[K4309 401]

On 4/06/2023 at 9:19 PM, Steve Pope said:

My thought was, purely and simply, here is something that we can actually do something about. Re the oil being wax like, there have been many reports over the years of an oil film on the surface, nah its just wax, Yeah right!!

Oh I fully agree.

That the govt f**ks around spending moonbeams trying to control nature, being all these invasive species, when they have something here with the Niagra that could actually control, but don't, because it doesn't fall within the remit of any of the govt silos.

These invasive species is just nature being nature. Things change, species come, species go. It is right up there with trying to control the weather. That is what everyone is trying to do with the whole concept of 'tackling climate change'

[Ex Machina 390]

On 4/06/2023 at 1:37 PM, K4309 said:

Ah, but oil from the Niagra is not a biosecurity incursion. So Biosecurity NZ aren't responsible.

And its nothing to do with Primary Industries, so the Ministry or Primary Industries aren't interested either.

Fairly sure that NRC aren't responsible UNTIL oil leaks. Until then, the oil is the responsibility of the ship owner. Oh, and as it was sunk in an act of war, insurance wont cover it.

So someone needs to trot off and find the ships owner, and convince them to salvage the oil before its too late. But as you see, our fractionated and siloed bureaucracy wont deal with it.

 

PS, I read somewhere ages ago, last time this came up, that the oil is supposed to be wax like, or very thick, and any attempt to salvage it is likely to substantially increase the risk of a disaster. Esp if they heat it to get it viscous. I think they are hoping it will just stay a guey blob on the bottom of the sea.

There is an onshore aquaculture venture almost directly west of the wreck . The saltwater intakes would be fecked by bunker fuel not to mention the kingfish and pāua that live there . There’s also a recovering commercial scallop bed the length of bream bay that is one hell of a producer when it’s in good shape . Salty dog bait harvests a shed load pilchards at certain times of the year in bream bay , H and C area . So there is a bit for MPI to think about but it’s not threatening the national economy .

[SloopJohnB 329]

On 4/06/2023 at 9:19 PM, Steve Pope said:

My thought was, purely and simply, here is something that we can actually do something about. Re the oil being wax like, there have been many reports over the years of an oil film on the surface, nah its just wax, Yeah right!!

and with global warming the wax will melt.

[K4309 401]

Hang on, wont the oil from the Niagra kill the caulerpa, and our caulerpa problem will be solved?

I work for the govt, and this is clearly infallible logic

 

[Steve Pope 253]

5 hours ago, K4309 said:

Hang on, wont the oil from the Niagra kill the caulerpa, and our caulerpa problem will be solved?

I work for the govt, and this is clearly infallible logic

 

small problem of Altitude (if that is a useable term) one lives on the bottom, the other wants too float.

[K4309 401]

12 hours ago, Steve Pope said:

small problem of Altitude (if that is a useable term) one lives on the bottom, the other wants too float.

Yeah, I was just working on my spin abilities, trying to take two turds and come up with a shiny happy outcome.

Here is a thought / question. If it leaks, NRC are responsible for clean up? Lets assume it leaks slowly, i.e. not a catastrophic failure but small bits at a time. Does NRC have all the gear and resources to deal with it leaking slowly? i.e. booms, boats, dispersant, the marine equivalent of vacuum cleaners to gather it up etc?

And of course the monitoring programme in place to get across it before it lands on the Poor Knights?

Also, lets hope NRC are slightly more onto it than Auckland Council Civil Defence (cough) and have ran scenario's and exercises focusing on a Niagra spill.

Dealing with the oil in the wreck on the sea floor is technically challenging and high risk. But the risk of a spill is known, so all prior preparation would go a long way to minimising the impact on that pristine environment. The only major flaw in this approach is the weather of course. But it appears to be the only approach that is actionable.

[Steve Pope 253]

It has been leaking slowly for many years, I believe it is a matter of when, not if or maybe. It should be a national govt. matter not an NRC one. Look at the Rena cleanup costs and Treble or Quadruple it and you might be closer to the money involved if / when it breaks up.

[Ex SanFran 15]

Hey, it should be Germanys problem, right?   They caused the problem in the first place.  Very wealthy country now.  Deap pockets blah blah blah

[harrytom 697]

On 16/07/2023 at 5:16 PM, SanFran said:

Hey, it should be Germanys problem, right?   They caused the problem in the first place.  Very wealthy country now.  Deap pockets blah blah blah

Should the British suck up the oil for sinking the Bismark or Tirpitz??

Many hundreds/thousands of submarines/u boats/ ships merchant and navel slowly rusting away in our oceans,20,30,50 yrs going to be a disaster.

is there not a bug/micro organism that eats oil? Just thinking of the exxon valdez still doing the damage despite the clean up.

[Black Panther 1,767]

I believe somebody dived on the Torrey Canyon a while back and said 7t was spotlessly clean and providing homes for the fishies. Salt water is quite remarkable. 

[The big T 45]

Oil is a natural product which weathers and disperses in time. It's just a major problem in large quantities. With slow seepage over the years, this may well be less of a problem than uniformed people make out.

[harrytom 697]

4 hours ago, The big T said:

Oil is a natural product which weathers and disperses in time. It's just a major problem in large quantities. With slow seepage over the years, this may well be less of a problem than uniformed people make out.

It would be heavy bunker fuel so should only seep out unlike diesel??

[harrytom 697]

Tv3 last Sunday had a good programme on it . Ocean Bounty. Where they located the ship as witnessed oil on surface.Sent a camera down

https://www.threenow.co.nz/shows/ocean-bounty/season-5-ep-13/S1247-430/M78402-189

 

Might have to log in/sign up

[harrytom 697]

Re watched the programme last night. They could smell oil in the air then spotted a small slick,using sonar and dropping a camera down. The camera on retrevil had thick black oil on part of the cable so maybe not to far from rupturing?

[Frank 173]

That was a Boxfish Research ROV used in the Ocean Bounty Documentary, my son was the operator  . When diving the President Coolidge the guide told us the Bunker C fuel was extracted years ago and transferred to visiting cruise ships. I'm told this was organised by dogged enthusiasts presumably to preserve the attraction.

 Bunker C is a heavy fuel oil requiring a pre-heat to reduce the viscosity before the engine can burn it, I have read it is wax-like at room temperature and yet WW2 era wrecks continue  to emit seepage. Studies have considering the potential pollution based on the predicted point of the tanks collapsing. An article I read was pessimistic but then according to Dr Google "Much of the Deepwater Horizon spill has disappeared due to  "Oil-eating microbes" so maybe there is nothing to worry about ? 

I'm sure there are members who have knowledge on the chemistry involved perhaps they could comment ?