The next yachting disaster

[CarpeDiem 510]

Wouldn't it make more sense to add a gybe preventer than a helmet? 

We carry a ski helmet for going up the rig underway. 

[Psyche 728]

38 minutes ago, Clipper said:

Id argue that is situations where a crash gybe is a possibility, a helmsman putting on a helmet is more likely to cause one.

Safety is not just about PPE, its about managing situations. When it gets wet or icy when driving, you don't put on a helmet, you slow down. Perhaps managing the boat different is a safer option?

I do agree a helmet for going up the rough on a rough day is a bloody good idea

Crash gybes are rarely out of the blue, it's usually the skipper being inattentive or distracted, ours have mostly been because of not looking backwards  but in breeze downwind you always know there is chance so you keep clear of the gear. On big boats 50 and up helmets would not make too much of a difference with the forces involved i.e the Platino.

[K4309 353]

3 hours ago, Clipper said:

Id argue that is situations where a crash gybe is a possibility, a helmsman putting on a helmet is more likely to cause one.

That is a nonsense statement. The helmsman isn't the one that gets hit by the boom, it's all the other crew. Usually a trimmer standing up.

[CarpeDiem 510]

24 minutes ago, K4309 said:

That is a nonsense statement. The helmsman isn't the one that gets hit by the boom, it's all the other crew. Usually a trimmer standing up.

I have witnessed four people who have been hit by a boom, nothing serious but enough of a bang to have them on the deck holding their head and pretty much out of action.  One had on going problems which took around 24 months to fully recover from... 

Three of these incidents were the helms person.  Each one on a different boat. 

Over the years I have also taken a couple of taps to the head while helming Carpe Diem, these have been during tacks, never in a gybe. 

So definitely not a nonsense statement. 

[K4309 353]

4 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

I have witnessed four people who have been hit by a boom, nothing serious but enough of a bang to have them on the deck holding their head and pretty much out of action.  One had on going problems which took around 24 months to fully recover from... 

Three of these incidents were the helms person.  Each one on a different boat. 

Over the years I have also taken a couple of taps to the head while helming Carpe Diem, these have been during tacks, never in a gybe. 

So definitely not a nonsense statement. 

OK so based on your anecdotal evidence that 75% of boom injuries are helmsmen, my above statement is wrong. Fair enough.

My statement was in response to Clipper saying that to get a helmsperson to put on a helmet is an exceedingly dangerous distraction. I still maintain that statement is nonsense. Unless you are solo, there is someone to swap with while putting on said helmet. In Clipper's world, does the helmsman not clip on because it's too much of a distraction? Do they not wear lifejackets cause it's too much of a distraction? This statement is clearly a nonsense.

But, what I'm wanting to ask CD, if you have personally seen 4 head injuries, and I'd say one taking 2 years to recover from is very serious, do you think carrying helmets onboard is a good idea? And possibly even wearing them on occasion? 

Or do you guys like banging you head against brick walls, getting a headache but hope for a different outcome?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for compulsory wearing of helmets like in ALL of the kids dinghy classes. I'm just suggesting that if there are so many head injuries and some fatalities, is it not logical to carry helmets?

[aardvarkash10 1,065]

Helmets are fraught ground for discussion.

 

I ride bikes.  E bikes, single-speed, commuter 7 speeds, ex mountainbker, touring, all that sh*t.

I wouldn't think of riding without a helmet, but I accept that this should be a personal choice.

 EXCEPT...

NZ has ACC, and your personal choice to not wear a helmet and so potentially ending up eating through a straw means your freedom of choice comes at my expense.

Same goes for lifejackets I suppose and I tend to be slack about that until Mrs Aardvark gets sporty and SO is riding on her chine.  But I accept the principle.

[Clipper 358]

I typed a different response but then realised without a helmet, i shouldn’t bother beating my head against a brick wall. 
 

i do stand by my statement. 

[Black Panther 1,692]

I have a small step ladder to reach the main boom.

[Psyche 728]

KEEP THREE POINTS OF CONTACT on the ladder at all times – two hands and one foot, or two feet and one hand while climbing, and two feet and one hand when working. > LADDERS MuST BE TRADE OR INDuSTRIAL STANDARD with a rating of either 120 kg or 150 kg and comply with the AS/NZS 1892 standard.

For low-risk, short-duration tasks, scaffolding or a harness is unlikely to be required.Podium ladders, light weight mobile work platforms, fall arrest soft land systems and safety nets or mesh in addition to harnesses and scaffolding. Measures selected need to be proportionate to the risk.

Wear your helmet please

[Black Panther 1,692]

1 hour ago, Psyche said:

KEEP THREE POINTS OF CONTACT on the ladder at all times – two hands and one foot, or two feet and one hand while climbing, and two feet and one hand when working. > LADDERS MuST BE TRADE OR INDuSTRIAL STANDARD with a rating of either 120 kg or 150 kg and comply with the AS/NZS 1892 standard.

For low-risk, short-duration tasks, scaffolding or a harness is unlikely to be required.Podium ladders, light weight mobile work platforms, fall arrest soft land systems and safety nets or mesh in addition to harnesses and scaffolding. Measures selected need to be proportionate to the risk.

Wear your helmet please

You scare me sometimes 

[Frank 157]

On 13/12/2023 at 8:57 AM, Clipper said:

Another thought is the IMHO over the top safety requirements of some events. They add cost, complexity, no safety and even worse, give the competitors a false sense of security.

I've often wondered what people would take (me included) if we had to take responsibly for out own safety and there were no rules around it.
Id ditch a few things, but not too many

Safety equipment is over the top and too damn expensive until you need it  which hopefully you never happens if you are a prudent skipper. 

[Frank 157]

On 15/12/2023 at 1:55 PM, CarpeDiem said:

I have witnessed four people who have been hit by a boom, nothing serious but enough of a bang to have them on the deck holding their head and pretty much out of action.  One had on going problems which took around 24 months to fully recover from... 

Three of these incidents were the helms person.  Each one on a different boat. 

Over the years I have also taken a couple of taps to the head while helming Carpe Diem, these have been during tacks, never in a gybe. 

So definitely not a nonsense statement. 

I guess the other aspect to being hit by the boom even if not initially fatal is it can cascade rapidly to a more critical situation as per the vessel Second Life and I think also Plastimo. 

[Frank 157]

On 15/12/2023 at 10:03 AM, CarpeDiem said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to add a gybe preventer than a helmet? 

We carry a ski helmet for going up the rig underway. 

I agree, for offshore passages we pre-rig preventers on both sides and they are in use the majority of the time, If I go offshore again I will investigate a Boom Brake.

[Black Panther 1,692]

I have a line fixed to the outboard end of the boom running to the gooseneck.  I can attach a preventer either side without dangling off the end of the boom.

[Black Panther 1,692]

I also think there is an over emphasis on equipment and not enough emphasis on skills and practice/experience.  And attitude. 

[aardvarkash10 1,065]

1 hour ago, Black Panther said:

I also think there is an over emphasis on equipment and not enough emphasis on skills and practice/experience.  And attitude. 

The safety equation:

Situational risk = Resources x Capability 

[Jon 395]

As a safety inspector I can check your prep and equipment easily however 

I can only take a guess at your leave of stupid, if you have none you wouldn’t get out of bed in the morning and if you have extreme you probably never went to bed.

Everyone that goes offshore needs some stupid but it’s generally experience that determines the outcome, however we all need to use up some stupid to gain experience 

IMHO

[aardvarkash10 1,065]

11 hours ago, Guest said:

Imo, should be inversely proportional to.

Yup, that's what I was trying to convey, but maths isn't my strong suit

[waikiore 445]

The two boats mentioned above -no one was hit by the boom initially at least.

[Jon 395]

37 minutes ago, waikiore said:

The two boats mentioned above -no one was hit by the boom initially at least.

And both had lots of experience aboard 

Which proves sh*t happens