Recommendations for getting gas checked

[K4309 269]

1 hour ago, mischief said:

Interestingly, I couldn't actually install a kero stove if i wanted to.... according to class rules...

(d) Prior to 1st January 2006, a minimum two-burner stove with grill and/or oven in working order shall be permanently fitted with a gimballed fitting.  With effect from 1st January 2006, as a minimum requirement, a two-burner LPG stove with grill and/or oven in working order shall be fitted permanently with a gimballed mounting and any dispensations given under rule 2.9 will cease to apply to this rule from that date. 

 

 

 

I note those rules don't say anything about it being operational, or certified.

I can sell you my old but very high quality gimballed stove with oven and grill. You could use it like a museum piece, and use a jet boil for heating up your tea.

What class is that?

[mischief 3]

Thanks, Have a perfectly functioning one that I guess will find out if it is compliant it is next week when I get my insurance survey.

Young 88 class

[Guest 80]

So, how long do these surveys last? Or is it just because of an Insurance co change?

[K4309 269]

22 hours ago, Guest said:

So, how long do these surveys last? Or is it just because of an Insurance co change?

It is entirely at the whim of the insurance co.

As in no fixed length of time. Insurance co has stated they wont require them annually.

I was expecting issues at 40 years (boat is 38) but they have brought this in for anything over 30 years.

Gas certs on the other hand are 7 years, noting there is no explicit requirement for one with the insurance co's, although I see many insurance co's ask if you have one when requesting quotes / shopping around for better / cheaper insurance.

[twisty 176]

My understanding is I need to get a condition survey for the boat every 5 years. That's what it has been so far.

[Island Time 1,239]

Well, here is the response;

Good afternoon Matt,

 

Thank you for contacting the Board regarding LPG installations on Boats.

 

If a gasfitter is required to issue a Gas Safety Certificate for any existing installation, this usually starts with a visual inspection of the installation followed by a gas pressure test.

You are correct in stating that the standard includes the statement that compliance with AS/NZS5601.2:2013 it does not apply retrospectively, it does not take the responsibility of the

Certifying Gasfitter to require the installation to :-

1. Be Gas Tight
2. Compliant with the codes at the time of installation.
3. Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated, and the consumer notified.

 

Should any work be carried out to the gas system as the result of either an inspection or testing of the installation, then the installation of the

boat or vessel and parts of the system do need to comply.

 

For example, a gasfitter has tested an installation and found a small leak on a gas hose connected to the rear of the hob, and discovers a

cracked or perished hose, then he is obliged to replace that section of gas hose and any other hose as its age has shown deterioration over that period of time.

 

Unfortunately, vessel owners are reluctant to have any form of gas safety inspection carried out on a regular basis, and when finally, they do, a lot more work than is anticipated is required to bring the installation to an acceptable standard.

 

Any Gasfitting work on a vessel is deemed as high-risk as defined by the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations 2010 and must be entered on the WorkSafe – Energy Safety database, identifying the vessel by name or registration number.

To do this a Gas Certificate of Compliance and Gas Safety Certificate must be issued and state that the installation complies with AS/NZS 5601.2 sections 3 to 9. This includes the gas soundness testing of an installation.

 

I look forward to the time where all vessels will require a Gas WOF as is required for the electrical installations on vessels connected to shore power.

 

 

Ngā mihi | Kind regards

 

Pete Worsnop

Technical Advisor

Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board
Ph 0800 743 262  |  DDI 04 495 2617 | peter@pgdb.co.nz | www.pgdb.co.nz

[K4309 269]

12 hours ago, Island Time said:

Well, here is the response;

Good afternoon Matt,

 

Thank you for contacting the Board regarding LPG installations on Boats.

 

If a gasfitter is required to issue a Gas Safety Certificate for any existing installation, this usually starts with a visual inspection of the installation followed by a gas pressure test.

You are correct in stating that the standard includes the statement that compliance with AS/NZS5601.2:2013 it does not apply retrospectively, it does not take the responsibility of the

Certifying Gasfitter to require the installation to :-

1. Be Gas Tight
2. Compliant with the codes at the time of installation.
3. Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated, and the consumer notified.

 

Should any work be carried out to the gas system as the result of either an inspection or testing of the installation, then the installation of the

boat or vessel and parts of the system do need to comply.

 

For example, a gasfitter has tested an installation and found a small leak on a gas hose connected to the rear of the hob, and discovers a

cracked or perished hose, then he is obliged to replace that section of gas hose and any other hose as its age has shown deterioration over that period of time.

 

Unfortunately, vessel owners are reluctant to have any form of gas safety inspection carried out on a regular basis, and when finally, they do, a lot more work than is anticipated is required to bring the installation to an acceptable standard.

 

Any Gasfitting work on a vessel is deemed as high-risk as defined by the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations 2010 and must be entered on the WorkSafe – Energy Safety database, identifying the vessel by name or registration number.

To do this a Gas Certificate of Compliance and Gas Safety Certificate must be issued and state that the installation complies with AS/NZS 5601.2 sections 3 to 9. This includes the gas soundness testing of an installation.

 

I look forward to the time where all vessels will require a Gas WOF as is required for the electrical installations on vessels connected to shore power.

 

 

Ngā mihi | Kind regards

 

Pete Worsnop

Technical Advisor

Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board
Ph 0800 743 262  |  DDI 04 495 2617 | peter@pgdb.co.nz | www.pgdb.co.nz

So the Board has completely missed the point (well, one of them at least) that the gas fitters do not know or understand the standard and are either approving substandard installations, or requiring significantly over the top installations.

Classic governance board response, "nothing to see here, no problems at all, move along"

But thanks for going to the effort IT.

[aardvarkash10 969]

20 minutes ago, K4309 said:

So the Board has completely missed the point (well, one of them at least) that the gas fitters do not know or understand the standard and are either approving substandard installations, or requiring significantly over the top installations.

Classic governance board response, "nothing to see here, no problems at all, move along"

But thanks for going to the effort IT.

Worse, its the boat owners' fault aparently.

"Unfortunately, vessel owners are reluctant to have any form of gas safety inspection carried out on a regular basis, and when finally, they do, a lot more work than is anticipated is required to bring the installation to an acceptable standard."

Experience on this forum and in life tells me that the open-ended cost of an "inspection" and lack of clarity about what is in and out of scope leads to the reluctance.

My car gets tested annually for a WOF.  I know exactly what to expect, the standards and testing methodologies are prescribed and the cost is known and imo, reasonable.  The business carrying out the testing (I use a testing station) has no interest in finding faults they can then charge to fix, and so I have a level of confidence that they are not finding faults for the income stream.  For these reasons, I happily comply with the testing requirements.

Perhaps there is scope for a licenced gas fitter to operate a business based on that model.  In the meantime, I'm sticking with kerosene.

[Island Time 1,239]

So, perhaps a joint effort in construction of a response?

This section gives an answer in my view;

"Certifying Gasfitter to require the installation to :-

1. Be Gas Tight
2. Compliant with the codes at the time of installation.
3. Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated, and the consumer notified.

 

Should any work be carried out to the gas system as the result of either an inspection or testing of the installation, then the installation of the

boat or vessel and parts of the system do need to comply.

 

For example, a gasfitter has tested an installation and found a small leak on a gas hose connected to the rear of the hob, and discovers a

cracked or perished hose, then he is obliged to replace that section of gas hose and any other hose as its age has shown deterioration over that period of time."

SO - the whole system does NOT need to comply - only any work done, and that the existing system is safe. As I thought all along.

Anyone want to rough out a response?

[aardvarkash10 969]

3 minutes ago, Island Time said:

Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated

this is the kicker.

Unless unsafe is defined somewhere (and I suspect it is not) this is a universal catch-all.  "Unsafe" is a matter of opinion (you can call it professional judgement if you want to be less derogatory).  If I am your gasfitter and I think something that is not compliant to CURRENT standards is ipso facto unsafe, its unsafe even if it is compliant with a previous standard

The wording of the clause is very poor.

[Psyche 634]

Question re gas explosions on board, how many incidents have we had in the last 5 years, what about 20? It is exceedingly rare as I understand it which is testament to the previous standards but now installations are aging its a pretty fair expectation that some maintenance is due. There was an explosion at Pine Harbour in the early 2000's on a Marauder which was a result of boatbuilder screwing into a flexible hose IIRC, its exceedingly rare for the systems to just "fail" most explosions are related to user error. Also if you rely on a sniffer and solenoid then the "turn off gas at bottle" sign can easily be ignored with possible negative consequences.

I know this is irrelevant to the problem we are facing which is not a big deal except for an additional layer of bureaucracy and the ridiculous cost of marine gasfitting. 

[Island Time 1,239]

Agree but surely an appliance that is not leaking, and functioning as designed, and has been running for years cannot be deemed "unsafe", I get the opinion issue...

[Psyche 634]

Heres a story for you; on a previous boat the gas setup when i got it was a steel bottle hanging from a bungee in an unvented locker, the bottle was connected to a section of flaking copper pipe with garden hose and rusting hoseclips, the connection to the oven was with some unknown ancient rubber pipe and the Vanessa oven itself had no flame cutouts There was no solenoid or sniffer and apparently this was how it had been since 1967.... Not condoning it, I replaced it at the time with an Origo meths stove which was pretty good if not a bit smelly. But I agree there is a bit of a disconnect between what is essentially a glorified camping setup in most older boats and rules which seem like someone wrote to cover of liability.

[waikiore 400]

I see both sides of this having been a" must be kero "man after witnessing two separate gas explosions on other boats while away cruising as a young guy. These days I do use gas however I always turn off at the bottle -and am possibly the only one i know who does , though a lot have a solenoid valve switch at the stove -so that should suffice. The real concern are those that put total faith in the little figaro sniffers, I had a job once that had me testing these units at various sites -lucky if 50% were accurately performing.

It seems to me that the real issue here is the cost being charged to check / modify and certify the installations on our mostly ageing fleet, some contractors are using this as 

a path to early retirement , no one can argue against replacing ancient flexible hoses etc -but the labour rates appear to be extortionate. I understand how this can be justified on boat sewerage plumbing but a straight forward single appliance gas setup with a sealed drain overboard locker ?

[chariot 243]

I have never relied on a solenoid. Have always turned off at the bottle after every use.