K4309 369 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 1 hour ago, mischief said: Interestingly, I couldn't actually install a kero stove if i wanted to.... according to class rules... (d) Prior to 1st January 2006, a minimum two-burner stove with grill and/or oven in working order shall be permanently fitted with a gimballed fitting. With effect from 1st January 2006, as a minimum requirement, a two-burner LPG stove with grill and/or oven in working order shall be fitted permanently with a gimballed mounting and any dispensations given under rule 2.9 will cease to apply to this rule from that date. I note those rules don't say anything about it being operational, or certified. I can sell you my old but very high quality gimballed stove with oven and grill. You could use it like a museum piece, and use a jet boil for heating up your tea. What class is that? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mischief 5 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 Thanks, Have a perfectly functioning one that I guess will find out if it is compliant it is next week when I get my insurance survey. Young 88 class Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 113 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 So, how long do these surveys last? Or is it just because of an Insurance co change? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 369 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 22 hours ago, Guest said: So, how long do these surveys last? Or is it just because of an Insurance co change? It is entirely at the whim of the insurance co. As in no fixed length of time. Insurance co has stated they wont require them annually. I was expecting issues at 40 years (boat is 38) but they have brought this in for anything over 30 years. Gas certs on the other hand are 7 years, noting there is no explicit requirement for one with the insurance co's, although I see many insurance co's ask if you have one when requesting quotes / shopping around for better / cheaper insurance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
twisty 176 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 My understanding is I need to get a condition survey for the boat every 5 years. That's what it has been so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,286 Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 Well, here is the response; Good afternoon Matt, Thank you for contacting the Board regarding LPG installations on Boats. If a gasfitter is required to issue a Gas Safety Certificate for any existing installation, this usually starts with a visual inspection of the installation followed by a gas pressure test. You are correct in stating that the standard includes the statement that compliance with AS/NZS5601.2:2013 it does not apply retrospectively, it does not take the responsibility of the Certifying Gasfitter to require the installation to :- Be Gas Tight Compliant with the codes at the time of installation. Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated, and the consumer notified. Should any work be carried out to the gas system as the result of either an inspection or testing of the installation, then the installation of the boat or vessel and parts of the system do need to comply. For example, a gasfitter has tested an installation and found a small leak on a gas hose connected to the rear of the hob, and discovers a cracked or perished hose, then he is obliged to replace that section of gas hose and any other hose as its age has shown deterioration over that period of time. Unfortunately, vessel owners are reluctant to have any form of gas safety inspection carried out on a regular basis, and when finally, they do, a lot more work than is anticipated is required to bring the installation to an acceptable standard. Any Gasfitting work on a vessel is deemed as high-risk as defined by the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations 2010 and must be entered on the WorkSafe – Energy Safety database, identifying the vessel by name or registration number. To do this a Gas Certificate of Compliance and Gas Safety Certificate must be issued and state that the installation complies with AS/NZS 5601.2 sections 3 to 9. This includes the gas soundness testing of an installation. I look forward to the time where all vessels will require a Gas WOF as is required for the electrical installations on vessels connected to shore power. Ngā mihi | Kind regards Pete Worsnop Technical Advisor Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board Ph 0800 743 262 | DDI 04 495 2617 | peter@pgdb.co.nz | www.pgdb.co.nz 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 369 Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 12 hours ago, Island Time said: Well, here is the response; Good afternoon Matt, Thank you for contacting the Board regarding LPG installations on Boats. If a gasfitter is required to issue a Gas Safety Certificate for any existing installation, this usually starts with a visual inspection of the installation followed by a gas pressure test. You are correct in stating that the standard includes the statement that compliance with AS/NZS5601.2:2013 it does not apply retrospectively, it does not take the responsibility of the Certifying Gasfitter to require the installation to :- Be Gas Tight Compliant with the codes at the time of installation. Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated, and the consumer notified. Should any work be carried out to the gas system as the result of either an inspection or testing of the installation, then the installation of the boat or vessel and parts of the system do need to comply. For example, a gasfitter has tested an installation and found a small leak on a gas hose connected to the rear of the hob, and discovers a cracked or perished hose, then he is obliged to replace that section of gas hose and any other hose as its age has shown deterioration over that period of time. Unfortunately, vessel owners are reluctant to have any form of gas safety inspection carried out on a regular basis, and when finally, they do, a lot more work than is anticipated is required to bring the installation to an acceptable standard. Any Gasfitting work on a vessel is deemed as high-risk as defined by the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations 2010 and must be entered on the WorkSafe – Energy Safety database, identifying the vessel by name or registration number. To do this a Gas Certificate of Compliance and Gas Safety Certificate must be issued and state that the installation complies with AS/NZS 5601.2 sections 3 to 9. This includes the gas soundness testing of an installation. I look forward to the time where all vessels will require a Gas WOF as is required for the electrical installations on vessels connected to shore power. Ngā mihi | Kind regards Pete Worsnop Technical Advisor Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board Ph 0800 743 262 | DDI 04 495 2617 | peter@pgdb.co.nz | www.pgdb.co.nz So the Board has completely missed the point (well, one of them at least) that the gas fitters do not know or understand the standard and are either approving substandard installations, or requiring significantly over the top installations. Classic governance board response, "nothing to see here, no problems at all, move along" But thanks for going to the effort IT. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvarkash10 1,072 Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 20 minutes ago, K4309 said: So the Board has completely missed the point (well, one of them at least) that the gas fitters do not know or understand the standard and are either approving substandard installations, or requiring significantly over the top installations. Classic governance board response, "nothing to see here, no problems at all, move along" But thanks for going to the effort IT. Worse, its the boat owners' fault aparently. "Unfortunately, vessel owners are reluctant to have any form of gas safety inspection carried out on a regular basis, and when finally, they do, a lot more work than is anticipated is required to bring the installation to an acceptable standard." Experience on this forum and in life tells me that the open-ended cost of an "inspection" and lack of clarity about what is in and out of scope leads to the reluctance. My car gets tested annually for a WOF. I know exactly what to expect, the standards and testing methodologies are prescribed and the cost is known and imo, reasonable. The business carrying out the testing (I use a testing station) has no interest in finding faults they can then charge to fix, and so I have a level of confidence that they are not finding faults for the income stream. For these reasons, I happily comply with the testing requirements. Perhaps there is scope for a licenced gas fitter to operate a business based on that model. In the meantime, I'm sticking with kerosene. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,286 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 So, perhaps a joint effort in construction of a response? This section gives an answer in my view; "Certifying Gasfitter to require the installation to :- Be Gas Tight Compliant with the codes at the time of installation. Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated, and the consumer notified. Should any work be carried out to the gas system as the result of either an inspection or testing of the installation, then the installation of the boat or vessel and parts of the system do need to comply. For example, a gasfitter has tested an installation and found a small leak on a gas hose connected to the rear of the hob, and discovers a cracked or perished hose, then he is obliged to replace that section of gas hose and any other hose as its age has shown deterioration over that period of time." SO - the whole system does NOT need to comply - only any work done, and that the existing system is safe. As I thought all along. Anyone want to rough out a response? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvarkash10 1,072 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 3 minutes ago, Island Time said: Any unsafe gas installation or appliance be isolated this is the kicker. Unless unsafe is defined somewhere (and I suspect it is not) this is a universal catch-all. "Unsafe" is a matter of opinion (you can call it professional judgement if you want to be less derogatory). If I am your gasfitter and I think something that is not compliant to CURRENT standards is ipso facto unsafe, its unsafe even if it is compliant with a previous standard The wording of the clause is very poor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Psyche 755 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Question re gas explosions on board, how many incidents have we had in the last 5 years, what about 20? It is exceedingly rare as I understand it which is testament to the previous standards but now installations are aging its a pretty fair expectation that some maintenance is due. There was an explosion at Pine Harbour in the early 2000's on a Marauder which was a result of boatbuilder screwing into a flexible hose IIRC, its exceedingly rare for the systems to just "fail" most explosions are related to user error. Also if you rely on a sniffer and solenoid then the "turn off gas at bottle" sign can easily be ignored with possible negative consequences. I know this is irrelevant to the problem we are facing which is not a big deal except for an additional layer of bureaucracy and the ridiculous cost of marine gasfitting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,286 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Agree but surely an appliance that is not leaking, and functioning as designed, and has been running for years cannot be deemed "unsafe", I get the opinion issue... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Psyche 755 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Heres a story for you; on a previous boat the gas setup when i got it was a steel bottle hanging from a bungee in an unvented locker, the bottle was connected to a section of flaking copper pipe with garden hose and rusting hoseclips, the connection to the oven was with some unknown ancient rubber pipe and the Vanessa oven itself had no flame cutouts There was no solenoid or sniffer and apparently this was how it had been since 1967.... Not condoning it, I replaced it at the time with an Origo meths stove which was pretty good if not a bit smelly. But I agree there is a bit of a disconnect between what is essentially a glorified camping setup in most older boats and rules which seem like someone wrote to cover of liability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waikiore 454 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I see both sides of this having been a" must be kero "man after witnessing two separate gas explosions on other boats while away cruising as a young guy. These days I do use gas however I always turn off at the bottle -and am possibly the only one i know who does , though a lot have a solenoid valve switch at the stove -so that should suffice. The real concern are those that put total faith in the little figaro sniffers, I had a job once that had me testing these units at various sites -lucky if 50% were accurately performing. It seems to me that the real issue here is the cost being charged to check / modify and certify the installations on our mostly ageing fleet, some contractors are using this as a path to early retirement , no one can argue against replacing ancient flexible hoses etc -but the labour rates appear to be extortionate. I understand how this can be justified on boat sewerage plumbing but a straight forward single appliance gas setup with a sealed drain overboard locker ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chariot 244 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I have never relied on a solenoid. Have always turned off at the bottle after every use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Risk Adverse 4 Posted May 5 Author Share Posted May 5 On 17/04/2024 at 9:44 AM, K4309 said: I have recently investigated this myself. Two out of three gas fitters (recommended by various people for marine work) do not know or understand the gas standards NZS 5601 part 2. For an installation like yours with a single appliance, you are allowed to use flexible hose to NZS 1869 Class C, which for the layman is standard BBQ hose, costs $12/m at Burnsco and costs the gas fitters $4/m. Two of the gas fitters claimed for that single appliance install I needed copper hose with flexible stainless steel at each end. The additional cost was several thousand dollars. Additionally they were stating I needed 2 gas sniffers interlinked to a solenoid shut off valve. The standards (and the other gas fitter) says I don't. More concerningly, one of said gas fitters said I don't need automatic flame out on all elements of the stove. The standard is very explicit on this, it does. I've already spent $2k replacing my perfectly good 38 year old stove with a modern, flimsy one to meet this requirement. Even when I quired this, and stated I have a copy of the standard in front of me, and quoted the clauses, they continued to provide incorrect information. Be aware that if you stove doesn't have automatic flame out on all elements, you either need to replace it, or perhaps not get a gas certificate unless your insurance co explicitly asks for it. (or you don't mind blowing $2 or $3k on an new stove for compliance purposes) As an aside, the Insurance Co says they don't like copper hose cause it corrodes, while 2 gas fitters are telling me I must have copper hose (I think the expensive stuff is rubber annealed now to get around this issue). Anyway, I highly recommend Graeme at Marine and Domestic Gas. He is based in Howick, but also travels regularly to Gulf Harbour. Gas Specialists | Auckland | Domestic & Marine | Installation & Repairs (marinedomesticgas.co.nz) Job done. Thank you all for your comments and recomendations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eruptn 103 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Really interesting to have followed this thread as today I have a letter from my gas supply company , the meter on my household supply needs to be replaced. All good, but then they go on to say the ‘full installation “ needs to pass a compliance test after they replace the meter. If it fails the system will need to be repaired to compliance! At least I now understand the implications…. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigal.nz 60 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 For one reason or another we have had to replace our Gas Solenoid and regulator. Unfortunately although we got the same solenoid (BEP) I didnt take a picture of the old setup. Does it go BOTTLE----SOLENOID-----REGULATOR---> Burnsco happily sold me a hose with a regulator at the BOTTLE end, but this must be for BBQs or something as if the above is correct I need a regulator on the other side of the solenoid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LBD 172 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 See if the link below works https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=cb00e98615192aee&rlz=1C1GCEB_enAU909AU909&sxsrf=ADLYWIKtqrjkeRYd3QHsPoBo_5HiJykLPA:1724837363483&q=LPG+gas+solenoid+low+or+high+pressure+new+zealand&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J_86uWOeqwdnV0yaSF-x2joQcoZ-0Q2Udkt2zEybT7HdnwtJ4zecPSJKnTlqcRa4FoY6IQ1phfWUddisLARZKQNsIcEpmcR8vCKVOenGsqvjHqwnoZgpAgCDbU6Ze8gQOtid8_0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwja1eHyr5eIAxV03zQHHT_MDYUQtKgLegQIFhAB&biw=1269&bih=600&dpr=1.5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 369 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 11 hours ago, bigal.nz said: For one reason or another we have had to replace our Gas Solenoid and regulator. Unfortunately although we got the same solenoid (BEP) I didnt take a picture of the old setup. Does it go BOTTLE----SOLENOID-----REGULATOR---> Burnsco happily sold me a hose with a regulator at the BOTTLE end, but this must be for BBQs or something as if the above is correct I need a regulator on the other side of the solenoid. Yes, it goes bottle, solenoid, regulator. BUT, technically (legally) you aren't able to replace the solenoid yourself. You need to get a certified gas fitter to do it, and pay the $1,000 to re-issue the gas certificate. It is questionable if you require a solenoid for safety purposes. Some gas fitters say you don't, some say you do. That is with respect to having two gas sniffers interlinked with a solenoid. Of course if you want want so you don't have to physically go to the gas locker to turn the gas off, then knock yourself out. Oh, and if any other part of your system isn't complaint with the current regs, a gas fitter will make you change the whole lot so that he can re-install your solenoid. That includes replacing your stove if it doesn't have auto-flame out on all elements. And replacing any flexible hose that are older than 7 years. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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