Who else thinks this is dumb?

[B00B00 310]

So does this make me retarded?

I really dont care what you guys say as I know it wins races and thats what we are out there to do......

why bother going out racing if you are not going to try hard.

[B00B00 310]

its just got to be done if you want to win a race.

[Atom Ant 0]

Nobody has EVER doubted your dedication & enthusiasm BooBoo!

[Marshy 30]

Piedys need hiking too!

[Guest Dry Reach]

I guess when I look back 4 pages and see the original photo, I should be more clear. Sitting out on the gunwhale is sensible. Not leaning against the cabin for a Sunday cruise is sensible. Sticking your arm out looks and is stupid. Even on a TP52 an extra few kilos of arm sticking out is gonna make no frigging difference at all. They're still a bunch of twats.

 

. Quite a few changes since then.

 

 

Actually AA you are right. when the boat is not flat and has a huge lean on. the Centre of effort of your body (&arm) is just about over the centre of gravity of the boat (keel) and it is pointless.

 

Take Booboo's photo above. if this boat was sailed flat the leverage of his weight would have great effect. but as soon as you start leaning over, like this (or worse), then, like you say "what is the point"! (his body is getting into a position directly above the Keel.

 

 

In this photo they would have got around the mark faster if the crew stayed on the rail and helped get the boat flat and fast, but they have to hoist a kite, so as soon as the weight is of the rail the mainsheet guy should have eased of the main and thus unload the boat and give the skipper enough steerage to get the boat flat and deeper. (unless they are heading for a seperation mark) and also give the crew a better platform to work / hoist from, instead of relying on one poor Crew fella to keep the boat flat.

 

the poor old crew is trying hard to make up for a oversheeted mainsail and a "over" eased genoa"

 

the easiest way to get the bow down in this situation was to keep the power in the genoa to push the bow down and ease the main to let the stern "flick" around.

 

to prove this try sailing upwind and fully powered up then dump the mainsheet and see what happens!

 

All hieght is lost! Weather helm is replaced by lee helm.

 

 

But like Clipper says "everything helps", and 5 guys with 5kg arms over a 3 hour period is 25kg's "further out" which might mean 0.001 knots boat speed. and yacht races are won and lost in seconds of time.

[Guest]

Actually AA you are right. when the boat is not flat and has a huge lean on. the Centre of effort of your body (&arm) is just about over the centre of gravity of the boat (keel) and it is pointless.

 

Take Booboo's photo above. if this boat was sailed flat the leverage of his weight would have great effect. but as soon as you start leaning over, like this (or worse), then, like you say "what is the point"! (his body is getting into a position directly above the Keel.

 

I have to disagree with you there. The position of a person's arm being above the centre of gravity is not what makes this pointless. Moving weight outboard in the horizontal plane will provide the exact same righting moment regardless of whether the boat is heeled or not.

 

Moving weight in any direction results in the overall centre of gravity moving in the same direction as the movement of weight. This is regardless of where this weight is in relation to the CoG.

It can be shown by the formula: GG' = (w x d) / Δ

where: GG' is the shift in centre of gravity

w is the weight shifted

d is the distance the weight is shifted and

Δ is the total displacement of the vessel

 

Righting moment is then calculated using the horizontal distance of the centre of gravity from the centre of buoyancy multiplied by the displacement.

 

A better demonstration of this is that if you moved a person from the leeward rail to the centreline, the increase in moment is the same as if you had moved a person (of the same weight) from the centreline to the windward rail.

 

What makes the situation pointless is that the righting moment provided by an arm is miniscule when compared with that from the keel. It would be much better if he was holding a beer. Hence why you need someone to replenish the empties.

[PaulR 3]

So does this mean unopened beers should be held by the base of the bottle, so the extra weight in the cap held further outboard provides more leeeeeverage

 

 

AND

 

Therefore at what point does one need to switch to holding the neck so that the contents yet to consumed and such weight involved are now further outboard

 

Are Green bottles heavier than Brown or Clear glass bottles

 

Is there a formular for 2 handed racing and what are rthe conversion factors for a fully crewed yacht

[Guest Dry Reach]

Actually AA you are right. when the boat is not flat and has a huge lean on. the Centre of effort of your body (&arm) is just about over the centre of gravity of the boat (keel) and it is pointless.

 

Take Booboo's photo above. if this boat was sailed flat the leverage of his weight would have great effect. but as soon as you start leaning over, like this (or worse), then, like you say "what is the point"! (his body is getting into a position directly above the Keel.

 

I have to disagree with you there. The position of a person's arm being above the centre of gravity is not what makes this pointless. Moving weight outboard in the horizontal plane will provide the exact same righting moment regardless of whether the boat is heeled or not.

 

Moving weight in any direction results in the overall centre of gravity moving in the same direction as the movement of weight. This is regardless of where this weight is in relation to the CoG.

It can be shown by the formula: GG' = (w x d) / Δ

where: GG' is the shift in centre of gravity

w is the weight shifted

d is the distance the weight is shifted and

Δ is the total displacement of the vessel

 

Righting moment is then calculated using the horizontal distance of the centre of gravity from the centre of buoyancy multiplied by the displacement.

 

A better demonstration of this is that if you moved a person from the leeward rail to the centreline, the increase in moment is the same as if you had moved a person (of the same weight) from the centreline to the windward rail.

 

What makes the situation pointless is that the righting moment provided by an arm is miniscule when compared with that from the keel. It would be much better if he was holding a beer. Hence why you need someone to replenish the empties.

CAn't disagree with some of your technical assumptions but you miss the point of my arguement.

 

What i was saying was it is pointless trying to get 1 or multiple crew to maximise there weight outboard when the Skipper or mainsail trimmer is not maximising the benefit of this weight by heeling the boat over!

 

every degree of heel not only negates the weight advantage on the rail but also reduces the lateral resistance of the keel and creates leeway!

 

Sometimes i thinbk the crew do all this hard work just for it to be mitgated by otheres in the team. and a lot of photo's, footage and observation i see back this up.

[B00B00 310]

in the case of those photos there was a seperation mark so we were reaching to it and also it was blowing 20kts which is fully top end of the #1, we were 1 crew member short (weight limit) so the helmsman was also doing the mainsheet both upwind and at the top mark, I was doing main but we decided it was better to hike and let the helmsman do it. we had 5 hiking hard and only the helmsman in. There were times that this was painfull like ducking boats and at the top mark, but overall it must have worked as we took a heavy old, overweight MK1 that has never been inside the top 10 and came 4th only just missing out on the podium!

[Murky 1]

overall it must have worked as we took a heavy old, overweight MK1 that has never been inside the top 10 and came 4th only just missing out on the podium!

Nice new headsail and a mirror-finish bottom too. Just goes to show what can be achieved.

[Atom Ant 0]

Ah I can't be bothered pasting in the bits of all the above comments, so here goes. BooBoo, I'm going to agree AND disagree with you. First of all no one is going to argue that keeping weight to weather reduces heel. Otherwise canting keels wouldn't work - right? But I AM going to argue that holding your arm out makes absolutely no difference at all. (in theory it might, but in practice it won't) HOWEVER... What makes it work is the go hard attitude that comes with it and is applied across the whole race. And that BooBoo is why you win races. Not because you hold your arm out, but because of your go fast, every little bit counts attitude - you're a winner. Having the crew sitting their arses on the toe rail and hanging on by suction from their butt cracks makes a difference as say 4 odd people sitting their entire weight of somewhere between 70 - 100 odd kg a further 300 mm WILL make a difference. But your arm? Nope, not a jot physically, but in your head? Yup.

 

PaulR your 1st question, while interesting should answer itself. If a beer bottle is passed to a crew member with its cap on there's a problem and the boat is gonna go slower. That's because a bottle should NEVER be passed to rail meat unopened. The energy expended passing it back, and having that handling error rectified will slow the boat down immeasurably. Better still hand them a can as cans don't smash if dropped during maneuvres.

[B00B00 310]

Well its actually funny, while I kind of agree that an arm cant make too much difference to the overall stability on a 2.7ton boat, I find that on boats like the Y88 where the lower life line is tight and also quite inboard, sometimes its hard to stay out when the boat does a big heel , so the arm actually helps to get the balance point further out so that you don’t fall back inboard. Sounds strange but it’s true.

So in this case it makes a massive difference as it keeps my whole weight out instead of having me sliding back against the cabin.

[Guest Dry Reach]

Forget beer bottles and get the helmsperson to develop his arm strength and then put a 20 kg weight on the end of the "adjustable" tiller extension and wham!

 

Booboo, yeah i thought there may have been a seperation mark and i was not saying your guys sailing ability was in question but just using the excellent photo to show how easily a "rail weight" advantage can be lost when the boat leans to much.

 

Are Y88's limited to a crew weight/ number max for the nationals? if so you could really do with some Aaron (don't mention it... to late!) Hansens in a breezy regatta!

[B00B00 310]

Yes this was the first nationals with a crew weight limit. Max crew is 7 but as we were all big guys we had to sail with 6 and were 40kgs under the limit, hence the need to hike hard!!

 

The rule was brough in only about 6 weeks out from the regatta and we already had a full crew set that we had sailed with all sprints so had to ease one out to get below the limit.

[Guest Dry Reach]

Yes this was the first nationals with a crew weight limit. Max crew is 7 but as we were all big guys we had to sail with 6 and were 40kgs under the limit, hence the need to hike hard!!

 

The rule was brough in only about 6 weeks out from the regatta and we already had a full crew set that we had sailed with all sprints so had to ease one out to get below the limit.

 

 

Bring back weight jackets!

[Guest Dry Reach]

You lot think thats dumb ?...

 

 

check out hius crew stacking hard and no sail up...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOciHcMK ... re=related

[PaulR 3]

PaulR your 1st question, while interesting should answer itself. If a beer bottle is passed to a crew member with its cap on there's a problem and the boat is gonna go slower. That's because a bottle should NEVER be passed to rail meat unopened. The energy expended passing it back, and having that handling error rectified will slow the boat down immeasurably. Better still hand them a can as cans don't smash if dropped during maneuvres.

 

AA: Sorry my appologies AA.

 

I was really only thinking about local racing.

Here the "local" bottles come with screw off caps, no opener required.

 

Passing such unopened "local" bottles to the rail is no problem because the cap will keep the salty spray and splash of water out of the beer. This is an essesntial requirement for rail meat, otherwise the complaints will continue for years and years and years . . . .

It also allows beers to be available before the current one is finished. Multi-tasking

 

Now to those foreign beers. I know some boats have an exclusion policy whilst other boats have competitions to find and bring onboard unknown brands to educate their fellow rail meaters, to introduce new flavours so intelligent and knot so intelligent debates can be conducted on long beats. Sampling such different beers can be a long and complicated process, hence the need to ensure the crew are all leaning outboard in case a process similar to that used by wine tasters occurs.

 

I hope that satisfies your bottle opener needs AA.

 

I am knot sure but I believe bottles waste too much space.

 

Cans are better in fridges because they can be properly packed, fit more cans in because cans do knot waste the space taken up by the necks of bottles.

 

It can be argued that gaps are needed to ensure the cold air moves over all the bottles to ensure the correct temperature.

 

However, surely the "acid test" must be volume of product per fridge.

 

Fill your fridge, stacked carefully with bottles, and then pour water into the fridge space until the upper lip is reached. Remove and count the bottles to calculate volume of beer. Now carefully add in some cleanser, scrub the fridge walls clean, remove the remaining water and measure that volume in the bucket.

 

Repeat the exercise but this time using cans.

 

What are your results??

 

Were your bottles or cans better in beer carrying capacity??

 

Did bottles or cans provide a larger unused air mass to chill?

 

This is worthwhile because we all need to wash out our fridges every so often in any event, especially before the summer cruise etc.

 

I know you won't be allowed to have all that beer in the fridge because SHMBO states "the food has to go in there", but now you will have onboard, purely for testing purposes:

 

a fridge load of bottles + a fridge load of cans less a few that were needed for rehydration purposes during the above calculations plus those extras that did knot fit in.

 

Knot a bad way to start summer and the fridge has been washed and rinsed as well.

 

Bring on summer!!

 

 

 

Now to catch up to the other posts.

[Atom Ant 0]

I bow to you PaulR. Top shelf stuff!!!

[Guest]

Just to keep you all on track - it is not dumb that people do this sort of nonsense, it's dumb that the genius types who wrote the rules can't come up with something more sensible.

[Guest]

I'm going to award one bottle of Mount Gay to Marshy for best pic, and another to JK for "highly recommended" - He managed to work a photo of naked people into a thread on hiking.

 

(SOmeone tell me how supplies are holding out - I'll be in the city later this week).