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Ok open the popcorn.

we’re changing the 40hp Yanmars in Bad Kitty.

I want similar horsepower, but we’re going V drives & shafts.

what experience has any of you had, good or bad, with various engines?

I really like the Yanmar engines, their sail drives are sh*t & the won’t stand by them, but the engines are great. So they are probably the front runners.

But it’s  a chance to look around though, and see what options we have.

Lombardinis are a lot lighter, but I don’t know much about them?

and with the greatest of respect, if you don’t have genuine technical input, or experience about the subject, please head over to small talk for some great trolling opportunities?

Thanks, 
 

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I know of various boats, including one of mine, which have had a good run out of lombardinis. I'm also aware of one boat that had to throw out a 5 year old one due to corrosion. That boat (or engine) may have been a one off or had some issue such as water sitting around engine - I'm not sure. 

If your concern with sail drives are that yanmar ones are no good, perhaps another brand sail drive is still an option? I've no experience with v drives, but have had shafts and sail drives, and would choose a sail drive based on efficiency, and the fact that either can have issues but in my experience sail drives have been easier to sort that shaft issues. 

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1 hour ago, Bad Kitty said:

Ok open the popcorn.

we’re changing the 40hp Yanmars in Bad Kitty.

I want similar horsepower, but we’re going V drives & shafts.

what experience has any of you had, good or bad, with various engines?

I really like the Yanmar engines, their sail drives are sh*t & the won’t stand by them, but the engines are great. So they are probably the front runners.

But it’s  a chance to look around though, and see what options we have.

Lombardinis are a lot lighter, but I don’t know much about them?

and with the greatest of respect, if you don’t have genuine technical input, or experience about the subject, please head over to small talk for some great trolling opportunities?

Thanks, 
 

The Lombardini's are light because they are a marinised car engine (I think probably Fiat origin) with features you do not want on a boat ie Aluminium head/OHC/Rubber timing belt. I had a similar situation with my previous engine, a marinised VW Golf diesel - was glad to see the back of it.

If you discard Lombardini then of course you have the 3 basic alternatives, Yanmar, Volvo and the Kubota derivatives - Nanni and Beta.

Volvo do not appear to have a product in the power range you need (jump straight from  28 to 55hp)

The Kubota based engines are very good, except being indirect injection they need glow plugs for a cold start, so you have 30-40 secs twiddling your thumbs while they heat up, normally no problem but what about when you want the engine(s) to start immediately?

I know you have considered SD60 saildrives, these seem to have a much better reputation than the previous SD40/50's

My cousin (I think you have met him) has the sort of installation you are thinking of in his 14m Ron Given cat, 2 x 35hp Nannis with ZF Hurth vee drives and Kiwiprops, very happy with this set up.

If you decide to go the vee drive route, one option could be keeping the existing Yanmars (those are a great block) and buying new gear boxes...

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I don't think the engine name is the point you want to be worrying about. The transmission is. As you say, the Yanmar is great, but let down by the Saildrive.  It's the drive, not the engine that was the weak link. So the question you need to ask is, is the Yanmar Vdrive better than what else is around. I would suggest it's no worse at least and I have always preferred Yanmar over Volvo for a whole lot of reasons.
From an install point of view, at least the Yanmar is going to drop back in the same place with no real issues. Where as a different make of engine is always going to be a major refit.

 

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11 hours ago, marinheiro said:

The Kubota based engines are very good, except being indirect injection they need glow plugs for a cold start, so you have 30-40 secs twiddling your thumbs while they heat up, normally no problem but what about when you want the engine(s) to start immediately?

I have the 21hp Nanni, about 1500hrs, more than happy once you figure out what non genuine filters fit it, genuine parts are expensive. 

6 seconds glow for first start of the day, after that it starts first flick of the key everytime.

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Had a ZF V drive from a 25hp isuzu in my Cav 32. Would never have another one. More trouble than it was worth. Had problems with it, took it to the agents who shall remain nameless. Got it back as a straight drive. How's that for technical experties. Couldn't believe my eyes. Needless to say we ended up in court.

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I see Beta do a 38hp with a V drive option.  Call Andy at The Engine Room, he's very good to deal with.  I'm very happy with my Beta - and one of the best things ex Yanmar/Volvo owners love is the spare parts policy (cheap).  My Beta oil filters are cheaper than Supercheap.

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I have recently installed a Beta 35 and I'm very happy with it. I can also vouch for Andy at the Engine Room, knowledgeable and good to deal with. Glow plugs are not an issue. We weren't pre heating at all, and only had trouble in winter. 8-10 secs is all you need. Beta pricing (when I purchased) was moon beams ahead of Volvo and Yanmar.

In the context you are asking, the Beta is designed for retro-fits. You can literally have any gearbox you want, from any supplier, fitted to the engine and included in the warranty. Beta also do a sail drive, and target you with it, people replacing Yanmars. I have no knowledge of sail drives though. There are several other aspects that are handy, flexibility in control panel spec, but things like a wide range of exhaust elbows so you can fit into your current set up easily, high risers, cross overs, many options. There is even one designed to align with the volvo set up first time.

Following Wheels point, you can get the right gearbox for you. When sussing gearboxes, I was shocked at the very narrow range of ratios you can get with the name brands. If you want a V drive, you'll be able to choose exactly what you want and get it with the Beta. Or go for the retro-fit sail drive.

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Lombardinis. Not for me. Italian. Problematic, and parts more difficult,  esp outside main areas.

Most of the yanmar SD issues are cones, and they have changed oil specs on various models to assist this. 

Despite what used to be, I can buy volvo filters etc from the agents cheaper than super cheap as well. Most parts are not as expensive as they used to be.

I know people who hate volvo penta, and others who love them and hate yanmar. Every brand has had issues, but I'd choose yanmar slightly over VP.

Nano and Beta both use the same base engines in many cases. IMO the marinising modification is of better quality from Beta. Apart from the marinising parts, parts for these engines are readily available from almost anywhere you can go, as they are used extensively in agriculture. 

Getting rid of the SDs is a good idea.  Complicated engineering below the sea surface is always problematic. Strut, shaft and dripless seals are way more simple. 

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Thanks everyone, this is great info, and just what I'm looking for. IT I'll give you a call re the Nanni/Beta comparison, interesting.

Thanks, keep it coming, really helpful

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Seems to me there’s a LOT of extra work in changing the drive configuration, I bet if you add it up, you could swap replacement saildrives in agin in 10 years and still  be better off.  I would look at how much extra work and cost you are creating for yourself - especially when there are bolt in replacement options.  You are talking about being out of the water for a week vs 6-8.

remember nothing is without maintainance....  theirs still seals, thrust bearings, and all the other fun stuff to fail

 

 

 

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BK, have you considered going to an electric drive? I am not suggesting Batteries. But a Diesel Electric drive. For want of a better pic, this will give you an idea what I am talking about.
Why choose an Electric Propulsion System for your boat ...
If the current engines you have are still OK, then simply remove and discard saildrive and fit a generator to each existing engine.
If the engines are going to need replacing anyway, you now have many options of engines to choose from. Or you could go for 2 self contained Gensets mounted in each Hull and then have heaps of electrical power for other thins on the boat.
Or have one Genset in just one Hull powering both drives and something else of equal weight can now be carried in the other hull. It provides many options limited to the size of your imagination.
 

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3 hours ago, wheels said:


BK, have you considered going to an electric drive? I am not suggesting Batteries. But a Diesel Electric drive. For want of a better pic, this will give you an idea what I am talking about.
Why choose an Electric Propulsion System for your boat ...
If the current engines you have are still OK, then simply remove and discard saildrive and fit a generator to each existing engine.
If the engines are going to need replacing anyway, you now have many options of engines to choose from. Or you could go for 2 self contained Gensets mounted in each Hull and then have heaps of electrical power for other thins on the boat.
Or have one Genset in just one Hull powering both drives and something else of equal weight can now be carried in the other hull. It provides many options limited to the size of your imagination.
 

Lagoon and Robertson and Caine tried this a dozen years ago, most installations were subsequently converted back to conventional drives.

There was also one of those big Nordhavn fitted with 3 (I vaguely recall) diesels and 2 electric drives, they finished up tearing all that out .

Nigel Calder spent a large amount of Euros testing all the diesel electric options and similarly concluded for a long distance cruising yacht the "least inefficient" was a direct coupled diesel engine.

BK already has one AC generator fitted 

 

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11 hours ago, Tamure said:

a conversion is not going to be cheap or quick. Its a new installation from the engine beds upwards unless I am mistaken. Not sure about the sd’s but a friend has an SD20 that’s been in the boat for 30 years trouble free apart from oil and anodes.

Yep SD 20’s are fine, everything bigger from Yanmar is junk.

And yes, changing the drive system is somewhat involved. But I know what’s involved, I’ve run the crap SD40’s for 14 years, and I’m happy to spend the money. 
Wheels I don’t see any diesel over electric systems that offer an advantage over more conventional drives at present.

Thanks for the input all, I do appreciate it.

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Just for reference, here is the list of gearbox options with the beta, basically any brand and ratio there is:

https://www.betamarineengine.com/gearboxes

Exhaust options

https://www.betamarineengine.com/optional-exhausts

And any other option you may want, shallow sump, PTO, remote oil filter, calorifer, control panels, engine feet, alternators etc

https://www.betamarineengine.com/options-and-accessories

The Beta's are designed and targeted at the retrofit market...

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I’ve just had clutch cone issues with my SD50 (which affects SD40s the same way). My understanding is that the upgrade kit addresses the majority of the issues (slipping cones and oil seal expansion etc).

Also I understand a move to SD60 is a popular option - a fundamentally better clutch system but it requires some boatbuilding work as the mounts are different.

Like you I like Yanmar engines and have several over the years with had good experience apart from this SD50 issue. My plan is to do the SD40/50 upgrade and see how well that lasts - and then probably change to SD60 medium term.

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I wouldn't have a drive belt.went away on a older vessel and belt parted.no danger at the time but no 5 minute job to change.no idea how old belt was though 

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21 hours ago, Fogg said:

I’ve just had clutch cone issues with my SD50 (which affects SD40s the same way). My understanding is that the upgrade kit addresses the majority of the issues (slipping cones and oil seal expansion etc).

Also I understand a move to SD60 is a popular option - a fundamentally better clutch system but it requires some boatbuilding work as the mounts are different.

Like you I like Yanmar engines and have several over the years with had good experience apart from this SD50 issue. My plan is to do the SD40/50 upgrade and see how well that lasts - and then probably change to SD60 medium term.

Hiya Fogg, I've heard of issues with the SD60's also, at very low hours too. And my big issue is that Yanmar NZ have proven that they won't stand by their product, so that's the deal breaker for me.

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On 7/02/2021 at 8:58 PM, Jason128 said:

Seems to me there’s a LOT of extra work in changing the drive configuration, I bet if you add it up, you could swap replacement saildrives in agin in 10 years and still  be better off.  I would look at how much extra work and cost you are creating for yourself - especially when there are bolt in replacement options.  You are talking about being out of the water for a week vs 6-8.

remember nothing is without maintainance....  theirs still seals, thrust bearings, and all the other fun stuff to fail

 

 

 

It's not about the money. I want reliability, the boat is very well maintained, but the SD40's need the cone clutches lapping, sometimes after 200 hours, sometimes after 50. That's not an acceptable situation for me.

I'd rather spend the money up front, and not have to worry that it won't last the xmas period. 

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