Military vs civilian adherence to rules

[DrWatson 375]

Speeding in the Marlborough Sounds.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/77229322/australian-frigate-hmas-warramunga-reported-speeding-in-marlborough-sounds

 

Question is:

 

Does a foreign military ship not have to obey the rules of a nation it visits? Surely it should have no more rights than any other ship when outside it's sovereign territory and inside the territory of a different sovereign nation? International waters may be different.

 

Unless war were declared, shouldn't all ships, civilian and military, have to obey international, and local laws?

 

Does that mean they can also drop anchor and go fishing in our marine reserves? 

 

I can understand if a NZ ship were doing this as it's their territory, but a visiting ship?

 

I do understand the importance of training, but you don't see tanks tearing up Q' St. 'just incase'...

 

 

 

[grant 40]

Navies are exempt from most rules, often out of courtesy they may observe them not to appear to be considerate.   Navy vessels do not always have the best reputation for playing by the same rules as everyone else, they do try but don't always managed to get it right....

 

Was told by a master mariner when he was a younger lad at sea the two type of ships you avoided (because you had no idea what they were going to do) were fishing boats and navy ships........

[DrWatson 375]

I can understand that regarding the Navy of the country you are in... but a visiting ship? 

 

I guess a visiting warship has to seek clearance from the territory to enter otherwise it could be considered an act of aggression...

[erice 732]

if the french army

 

go on nato exercises in germany

 

should they be arrested

 

if their tanks tear up the turf?

[DrWatson 375]

Wait, the French have tanks?

 

It's not a relevant comparison. The Navy operate in the same three (four) dimensions as civil craft - the effects of their actions can not be as easily separated from the public as can training exercise in Waiouru, for example. One is an open public space, the other is a closed space.

[erice 732]

would you prefer closed navy spaces

 

around the coast?

[DrWatson 375]

Of course I would not, but I'd prefer some adherence to local rules in enclosed spaces - especially where speed limits have been established for valid environmental reasons.

 

My main comment is, why, in a time of peace, should military ships not adhere to civilian laws (especially as we're the ones paying their salaries!) Just like cops should drive at the speed limit unless there are extenuating circumstances, and foreign security agents (i.e. FBI) should not bear arms or have any power in NZ.

[wheels 543]

Yes they must follow another Countries Laws and if anything, out of common respect. Even down to Flag etiquette is due out of respect. Back in the very early days, Flags could declare Battle/War or Peace. Flags are a language respecting the Sovereignty which is in fact who declares the Law of a Country. To disrespect a Countries Law by a foreign Navy is also a disrespect for the Sovereignty of that country.
Then there is just plain common respect. It would be a bit like the Police not obeying our Roadrules but expecting all civilians to obey. Good thing that never happens eh.
   Now in saying all that, as Grant says, the difficulty is in getting a foreign military vessel to obey local laws, because NZ officials seem reluctant in telling offenders off due to not wanting to offend them.

[Black Panther 1,589]

Don't let them back in. Simple. Better still impound the boat till all NZ'ers being held without charge in Aus are released. This could be fun.

[erice 732]

if trump gets in

 

it'd be an aircraft carrier

 

uninvited

 

at 30 knots

 

and they'd warn off the harbour master 

 

with hot rounds

 

 

cod fishing

[Romany 162]

Or.... round up all the crims and rat bags that we have been given back of late by our west island cousins, load them on the ship, set it off westwardat full noise.

 

Another convict ship arriving shouldn't ruffle their feathers.

[Black Panther 1,589]

I love the way your mind works.

[John B 106]

Well, we see this every weekend in the Waitemata don't we , except its people with commercial liscences who don't have to obey speed rules imposed on the rest of us. Ferrys etc.

Tell me , WTF is that jet boat doing speeding up and down like a chook with no head outside Princess wharf when everyone is supposed to be doing under 12?

 

And thats without considering the blatant disregard people on jetskis in the waitemata have for any rules whatsoever.

[Vorpal Blade 89]

On that same note JB I am happy to report that last Saturday I saw the Harbourmaster pulling over fizz nasties doing more than 12knots . Shame he wasn't paying attention though, cos while he was busy busting 5m tinnies on one side of the harbour I saw three Riviera types on the other side of the harbour heading out doing 20+knots creating their customary tsunamis.

[AJ Oliver 154]

I'd protest vigorously to the Ozzie parliament and green movement. 

 

That behavior is really un-neighborly. 

 

Almost as bad as trying to bring nukes in. 

[Romany 162]

Not that I disagree with that no nukes decision AJ, but I think its fair to say we've been paying for it ever since.

 

It was worth it.

 

Although they got their own back on us by way of "Survivor" and its ilk.

[Island Time 1,235]

Yep, KM is right (this time).

 

I have it on good authority that the Jet boat has been in trouble with the HM before now, and they have gone thru several skippers. They have NO speed dispensation, except that they are allowed closer than 200m to the wharfs.

 

I would not like the HM's job.....

[Vorpal Blade 89]

If you weren't aware there is a fast lane down the south side of the harbour by the Orakei breakwater.

The 12kt rule doesn't apply harbour wide.

Does it apply all the way from Westhaven or once the tsunami makers are east of the container terminal?

[Dagwood 57]

Does it apply all the way from Westhaven or once the tsunami makers are east of the container terminal?

 

Page 2 of this PDF explains it: https://at.govt.nz/media/1144860/auckland_harbour_restricted_areas-july-2015.pdf

[ScottiE 174]

I'm sure you can add the pilot vessel to the list of boats that cut that corner greater than 12kts.  Don't see why they should on a return trip - just means poor time keeping!