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Fatality - Northland


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16 hours ago, Black Panther said:

Makes sense. Similarly how about some credit for ocean miles covered by a skipper/owner?

Mmm, isn’t that going down the wrong path? Shouldn’t the certification be 100% for the boat independent of the owner / skipper / crew?

Because if you follow that logic to its conclusion you could end up with a scenario whereby an inspector effectively says “Well this boat meets Cat 1 if it’s sailed by person X (with for example 25 yrs / 50,000nm offshore experience) but it fails if sailed by a person with lesser experience.”

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Sorry, I don't agree with either of those. For example, If someone has lots of offshore experience as crew - say racing - that is not the same a being skipper. It's got to be a judgement call, as it is now. Your Cat 1 inspection is not just the boat, but also the crew, as it is now. The best possible boat does not work with muppets for a crew, and the best possible crew does not work with a structurally unsound vessel. That is why as part of Cat one, thre is required to be at least 1 in the crew with offshore experience. 

There are also then proof - how do you prove ocean miles? In the current environment, this would likely lead to compulsory certification etc.

Remember that while we can expect most people to be reasonable, the system has to allow options to control those who are not. YNZ have not stopped very many vessels at all. Although I, like BP, have had one bad experience with an inspector, the others have all been great, and i have no problem with the system in general.

 

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This sounds like muddling two sets of requirements.

The Cat 1 inspection should be just for the boat and it should either be compliant or not. Totally independent of crew. This is the way we approve the safe use of other vehicles for their intended purpose including cars and aircraft for example. You don’t get a WOF for your car if it’s in sh!t state but you’re a great driver, do you?! And can’t do a self-declaration that because you’ve been driving for 25 yrs you can self-certify your car is safe. That would be ludicrous. So why apply it to boats?

Then you should have a totally separate matter of whether the skipper & crew are suitably experienced for the intended journey. That last bit is the key. For coastal cruising around NZ there is no formal requirement for experience so anyone can go coastal sailing even beginners. But for offshore it sounds like there is already a requirement under YNZ ie at least one person in the crew must meet the requirement for the intended trip. And that sounds reasonable although it opens a new question of how to prove it adequately. But either way the crew’s suitability to undertake the trip should remain totally independent to the certification of the boat. The Cat 1 certificate shouldn’t be a bundled package of boat + crew because the latter can change at any time.

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This is not a YNZ requirement, but a Maritime NZ one, that they hand off to YNZ and is part of the cat 1 inspection. Here is the rule;

Under section 21 of the Maritime Transport Act, masters of all pleasure craft must notify the Director of Maritime New Zealand of their intention to depart New Zealand before they leave.

Additionally, New Zealand flagged vessels must also:

  • satisfy the Director that the vessel and its safety equipment are adequate for the voyage; and
  • satisfy the Director that the vessel is adequately crewed for the voyage; and
  • observe any other relevant maritime rules.
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Ok that’s cool, it lists suitability of vessel and crew as two totally separate things. Which makes sense if the vessel is assessed in isolation and then the proposed crew is discussed.

I just misunderstood you guys because I thought I heard you saying is that you had (1) experienced and (2) supported the concept that these two assessments are intertwined ie that the boat might be assessed as ‘nearly suitable’ but if the crew were assessed as especially strong then this could overcome the vessel’s shortcomings.

So in summary both the vessel and the crew must be assessed as suitable to get the green light to go but the 2 assessments do not influence each other.

So the only question remaining in my mind is whether the Cat 1 certificate relates to the boat itself (as I think it should) or not? And so what you need to depart is (1) Cat 1 vessel and (2) offshore approved crew?

And maybe when people say “I’ve got Cat 1” what they really mean is that they got approval to depart which means both a Cat 1 vessel plus approved crew (which is 2 different approvals side-by-side)?

 

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Keep in mind that your Cat 1 clearance must be got "immediately before the passage or race" and expires as soon as the passage or race is completed.

It reverts to a Cat 2 cert at that point.

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And with a quick skim just then, I could only find 4 items (for the boat) that are different between cat 1 and cat 2. And those were items recommended in 2 but compulsory in 1. But I could have missed something.

As far as I can tell structural stuff is the same for both categories.

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16 minutes ago, Fogg said:

Just out of curiosity how much does an inspection cost (if anything)? And where does the money go?

$115 for members of a YNZ affiliate YC. An Extra $75 if not... That's the YNZ cost, there is a time and travel cost for the inspectors.

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