Bay of Islands Sailing Week 2022

[Fish 0]

5 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

For someone who is a site Mod and until very recently was tagged as the Site Owner, (so I can only assume you still are the site owner), your position on this legal requirement is quite deplorable. 

Wether you accept it or not you're in a position of leadership in what is arguably the best sailing/yacht racing forum in NZ.  Your comments reflect badly on the entire community. A community that's increasingly being tagged with the #privileged tag

It is a f**king stupid rule. The more people in a position of leadership or authority to say so the better.

Christ, if it is stupid, call it stupid, stupid.

Call a spade a spade.

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

13 minutes ago, Fish said:

It is a f**king stupid rule. The more people in a position of leadership or authority to say so the better.

 

I'm assuming that you are using the term "stupid" because you feel the rule doesn't achieve its purpose.

I agree its inconvenient. Annoying. Disruptive to the individual.  In the meantime, its the law. 

Just like its law to slow to 20kph when passing a school bus, even in a 100kph zone.

This is also inconvenient. Annoying. Disruptive to the individual.  But I don't see the general public questioning this rule because, in general, they understand the science - a car travelling at 60kph is far more likely to kill a child than one travelling at 20kph.  We understand this intuitively, even if we don't admit its implications to ourselves all the time. 

I don't have the scientific knowledge and experience to know whether its stupid.  Just saying something is stupid is kinda worthless.  Actually engaging with the science and challenging problems with the scientific basis for a law (if any) has value.

[Fish 0]

4 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:

I'm assuming that you are using the term "stupid" because you feel the rule doesn't achieve its purpose.

I agree its inconvenient. Annoying. Disruptive to the individual.  In the meantime, its the law. 

Just like its law to slow to 20kph when passing a school bus, even in a 100kph zone.

This is also inconvenient. Annoying. Disruptive to the individual.  But I don't see the general public questioning this rule because, in general, they understand the science - a car travelling at 60kph is far more likely to kill a child than one travelling at 20kph.  We understand this intuitively, even if we don't admit its implications to ourselves all the time. 

I don't have the scientific knowledge and experience to know whether its stupid.  Just saying something is stupid is kinda worthless.  Actually engaging with the science and challenging problems with the scientific basis for a law (if any) has value.

Yawn. A yacht has never killed a dolphin when passing at 7 knots, unlike kids and school buses. Very poor analogy.

The dolphins left the Bay because there wasn't enough food. One so called dolphin expert wrote a flawed study, several other dolphin experts said it was rubbish. Now a 'law' has been passed, that will have zero benefit to the dolphins, but has contributed to the demise of a phenomenal sailing & social event. Between this and the rahuis on Motutapu, Barrier, the Waitakares etc, the world has gone mad. It would do the world of good if good people started 'breaking' stupid laws.

[CarpeDiem 510]

40 minutes ago, Fish said:

It is a f**king stupid rule. The more people in a position of leadership or authority to say so the better.

Christ, if it is stupid, call it stupid, stupid.

Call a spade a spade.

Don't have any problem with anyone calling any law stupid. Please go ahead, shout it from the rooftops, get out there with your protest signs.

Of course the most effective time to do that was during the 6 month public consultation period. Unfortunately the majority of respondents supported the restrictions.

Did you put in a response?  I did, told them I thought the real issue was the fact the Bay was being fished out and maybe they should consider making it a marine reserve and that would bring back the dolphins. Unfortunately I am not an expert in anything marine biology so I suspect it fell on deaf ears. 

 

[CarpeDiem 510]

18 hours ago, Psyche said:

Correct me if i am wrong in my assumption; that this has been brought about by people deliberately engaging with marine mammals and causing distress.

I am not sure that's entirely correct.

My understanding is it has been bought about because the number of marine mammals in the BOI has reduced dramatically and 'they' have determined that one of the reasons for this is people and boats. 

The first page of the document I linked above has more details snippet below. The original consultation pack had a significant amount of research and information in it. 

18 hours ago, Psyche said:

Hey CD you have definitely got the wrong end of the stick and I have as well, I was a bit confused that these rules extended to all coastal areas not just the Bay.

Thanks for clarifying  sorry I jumped to conclusions... 

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

2 minutes ago, Fish said:

Yawn. A yacht has never killed a dolphin when passing at 7 knots, unlike kids and school buses. Very poor analogy.

 

That wasn't the point of the analogy - you are choosing to be obtuse.

[CarpeDiem 510]

36 minutes ago, Fish said:

The dolphins left the Bay because there wasn't enough food.

Is that your opinion or is that factual and based on actual research? If factual can you please post the supporting research? 

36 minutes ago, Fish said:

One so called dolphin expert wrote a flawed study, several other dolphin experts said it was rubbish.

Can you provide the supporting evidence behind both these assertions? Sounds like a conspiracy at the highest levels of marine science. 

36 minutes ago, Fish said:

Now a 'law' has been passed, that will have zero benefit to the dolphins

You seem to be very knowledgeable on the entire process, the people involved making the decisions and have inside knowledge that the mms will be of no consequence to the environment.

Can you share more information with the crew community? 

36 minutes ago, Fish said:

But has contributed to the demise of a phenomenal sailing & social event. 

You might have missed some key content.  The MMS was by no means the major reason Bay Week was cancelled, in fact it was pretty minor in the list of reasons they published. 

The legislation allows for organised events to apply for exemptions. It's yet to be seen how this plays out in reality.

More importantly, the mms won't stop Bay week going ahead in the future, even if the organisers are unable to obtain an exemption  it is a local law that's no different to any other local law yacht racers abide by. 

Eg, The number of times I have had to change course and been significantly disadvantaged during racing due to the presence of another right-of-way vessel (think large container ship or ferry) is a reality faced by all racers. 

There is no opportunity for redress if you're cut off by a container ship or a pod of Dolphins, it's a case of sh*t happens. 

[Fish 0]

On 27/12/2021 at 10:27 AM, Psyche said:

I am definitely not a comments scientist 😅 just surprised at the findings. Dolphins come and go, its always a pleasure to see them and they do not stick around or least not that I notice for more than a very brief spell. I am not sure that decency has anything to do with it, more like practicality. Need to get somewhere before dark or before weather or if racing is a hotly contested series and by extension should we apply this attitiude to other marine animals, snapper for example are quite intelligent fish but we still eat them. Not mammals so we dont really care?

Have the studies given any indication of actual harms, I am still inclined to think of yachts as a bycatch. Big Riv's on the other hand we all love to hate them!

 

DOC says;

For dolphins:

• you may gradually increase speed to outdistance dolphins
• do not exceed 10 knots until more than 300 m away
• do not swim with dolphin pods containing juveniles. Juveniles are half the size or smaller of an adult.

 

 

so to me its common sense, dont harrass them or circle them to entertain the guests.

 

19 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

For someone who is a site Mod and until very recently was tagged as the Site Owner, (so I can only assume you still are the site owner), your position on this legal requirement is quite deplorable. 

Wether you accept it or not you're in a position of leadership in what is arguably the best sailing/yacht racing forum in NZ.  Your comments reflect badly on the entire community. A community that's increasingly being tagged with the #privileged tag

What we have here is a clear example of PC twaddlebollocks suppressing basic debate. Possibly what people refer to nowdays as woke-ness.

The top poster is clearly of reasonable intellect and capable of a degree of independent thought. They can't understand aspects of this new rule, which clearly has a number of short comings. Upon posting his questions and commentary, instead of getting considered responses and informed discussion, he gets told he can't think like that, or at least express his thoughts publicly.

It is not really clear to me why he can't express his thoughts publicly. It is possibly an issue with other peoples views and perceptions of his thoughts. There is certainly nothing particularly controversial. Nothing about genocide. No racism or sexism. No politics. Not even a mention of vaccines or mandates.

Just a couple of thoughts and questions on something directly related to sailing. Fairly legitimate use of a forum I would have thought. Not sure what else you could use a forum for if its not for this use?

[ynot 52]

Deep Purple started it by posting something about racing entries....his fault... Haha

Bugger me look where it's gone. 

[CarpeDiem 510]

6 hours ago, Fish said:

It is not really clear to me why he can't express his thoughts publicly.

Hey Fish, you seem to have missed parts of the thread. I guess it's a lot to take in. 

There was an incorrect understanding on my part that Psyche was inferring that he'd ignore the sanctuary laws and indirectly encouraged others to do the same.  Particularly so if he had somewhere to get to in a hurry, or if he was in a hotley contested yacht race. 

There was an incorrect understanding on Psyche's part that the rules were recommendations for the rest of the coast and covered more than just the BOI. 

Psyche subsequently stated that we'd both gotten the wrong end of the stick and that he'd (a) never intentionally breach mammal sanctuary laws; and (b) would never encourage others too. 

I acknowledged and apologised for jumping to conclusions. 

Hopefully that clears up your concerns.

[The big T 41]

Start line Bayweek last year. Gorgeous breeze, about 15 boats all stacked up after on wind, close start and then the dolphins came for a play just after gun.

What next now?

[ynot 52]

3 hours ago, The big T said:

Start line Bayweek last year. Gorgeous breeze, about 15 boats all stacked up after on wind, close start and then the dolphins came for a play just after gun.

What next now?

Protest race the committee for..... Umm something... and ask for redress for stopping to respect the bylaws! 

[Vivaldi 55]

4 hours ago, The big T said:

Start line Bayweek last year. Gorgeous breeze, about 15 boats all stacked up after on wind, close start and then the dolphins came for a play just after gun.

What next now?

The rule doesn’t apply to those participating in an approved organised event. If the Bay Week organisers get approval to run the event - then it’s racing as normal. 

[harrytom 679]

3 hours ago, Vivaldi said:

The rule doesn’t apply to those participating in an approved organised event. If the Bay Week organisers get approval to run the event - then it’s racing as normal. 

Please show where the rules that state, a organised event takes precedence over DOC rules?? Yes maybe able to apply for exemptions  like they do for power boat races .But I would suggest DOC would say,change the course so you do not race within the Dolphin Sanctuary.

[Psyche 739]

 

I still think this is mostly brought about by the actions of the powerboating community. It would be really interesting to see the data on the types of vessels, size and speeds the Dolphins prefer.

 

 

[Vivaldi 55]

8 hours ago, harrytom said:

Please show where the rules that state, a organised event takes precedence over DOC rules?? Yes maybe able to apply for exemptions  like they do for power boat races .But I would suggest DOC would say,change the course so you do not race within the Dolphin Sanctuary.

It was on the DOC website - but it seems to be down today. 

[Black Panther 1,701]

I believe a big part of the problem is we have been hit with a raft of rules and regulations ( biofouling, dolphins, life jackets,  storm shutters), none of which seem to have solid science behind them, inconsistent across regions, imposed, no worthwhile consultation,  all at a cost to boat owners and boat owners have no representation.  This all leaves a bad taste and an inclination to ignore the whole lot.

[Psyche 739]

5 hours ago, Black Panther said:

I believe a big part of the problem is we have been hit with a raft of rules and regulations ( biofouling, dolphins, life jackets,  storm shutters), none of which seem to have solid science behind them, inconsistent across regions, imposed, no worthwhile consultation,  all at a cost to boat owners and boat owners have no representation.  This all leaves a bad taste and an inclination to ignore the whole lot.

Gee I wonder if there is a national organisation that we all could pay dues to with our club memberships that would represent yachties at the legislative table?

[CarpeDiem 510]

45 minutes ago, Psyche said:

Gee I wonder if there is a national organisation that we all could pay dues to with our club memberships that would represent yachties at the legislative table?

YNZ sent in a submission against the proposal and consulted directly with DOC. Like all the other submissions against the proposal (including my own) the YNZ submission lacked scientific research and was not evidence based.  But I'd expect that for an organisation that doesn't employ or have marine scientists on hand.

YNZ also reached out to all their member clubs for feedback as well. As a member of three Auckland clubs, I heard nothing from any of them about the sanctuary proposal.  I don't blame the clubs either, they are volunteer driven and have more than enough to deal with. 

DoC also held information sessions with local clubs and offered to run one in Auckland if there was interest. I posted if anyone would be interested in attending an Auckland session and received no interest. 

The submissions are publicly available, I have previously posted a link to them in another thread somewhere.  You can see what YNZ had to say. 

8 hours ago, Psyche said:

I still think this is mostly brought about by the actions of the powerboating community.

There simply isn't any scientific evidence or research to back up claims that sailing boats cause zero harm and all the harm is caused by motorized boats. 

Agree with it or not, numerous papers suggest that humans and their boats screw with dolphin behaviour.

Until someone commissions a piece of research into the effect of sail boats alone, sailboats are going to be lumped with "all boats". 

If someone is sitting on the evidence then they did the sailing community a disservice by not providing it to DOC or YNZ during the consultation period. 

[CarpeDiem 510]

6 hours ago, Black Panther said:

none of which seem to have solid science behind them

Dolphin science seems to be a bit like climate science... it's convincing enough for some but not for everyone.