Pauhia ferry crash

[BNG 42]

1 hour ago, Steve Pope said:

BUT no charges from MNZ or of them using Health and safety as a back up?

Not a commercial boat nor a workplace I guess.

[Northlander 0]

Anyone have any updated info on the person driving the boston whaler - I am yet to see any info at all about them?

[harrytom 618]

Not the ferry but related

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/man-charged-with-manslaughter-after-fatal-manukau-harbour-boating-incident/RYTJ7XYDIJAMBANCMD3KDJI3LA/?fbclid=IwAR3FbxwRIQp4wuA2CaYrlkEt6PGPdUwR5B5CtiUD8PuRxgwsoocxCDUVu3g

[nilton541 0]

On 14/04/2023 at 1:58 PM, Far North Boy said:

Interestingly I fitted a new vhf radio to this boat an hour before the collision. I was interviewed by MNZ at lunchtime today about it. Over a year ago one of of my employees was the last person to work on Enchanter just before she left on her fatal voyage. I wasn’t contacted by MNZ regarding that. MNZ are staffed by failed cops, they know nothing about boats so forget any meaningful changes. 

"Hi there,

When encountering a longliner near the Hen n Chicks, it's important to give way. Regarding the fishing day signal, two cones pointing towards each other should be displayed. Modern nav gear can be complex, but maintaining vigilance and safety is essential. Enjoy your winter sailing!

[Island Time 1,175]

While that is correct, the order of priority is, Not under command, restricted in ability to maneuver, constrained by draft, fishing vessel, sailing vessel, power-driven vessel, seaplane. 

However it's disappointing to notice how many fishing vessels have their day shapes welded to their masts! When NOT fishing, they are just a power vessel.

[Black Panther 1,501]

I give way to anything big enough to damage my boat. You SUPs and kayaks get out of my way.

[Psyche 534]

8 hours ago, Black Panther said:

I give way to anything big enough to damage my boat. You SUPs and kayaks get out of my way.

So you give way to containerships only?

[K4309 144]

9 hours ago, Black Panther said:

I give way to anything big enough to damage my boat. You SUPs and kayaks get out of my way.

Interestingly, when I was doing my Yachtmaster qualification, I quoted the "might is right" rule and got failed.

I was convinced there was a rule that you had to give way to anything over 500t. I think it was an Auckland Harbour bylaw. Noting I was doing my Yachtmaster in the UK, so the instructor wouldn't have heard about in if it was an Auckland rule.

I'm still firmly convinced you should give way to anything over 500t. While its not a rule as per the colregs, I'm fairly sure its a rule according to the laws of physics.

[Dagwood 56]

18 minutes ago, K4309 said:

I was convinced there was a rule that you had to give way to anything over 500t. I think it was an Auckland Harbour bylaw.

Yeap:

[Island Time 1,175]

Come on guys, the rules are there so that other skippers know what your are (likely/supposed) to do.

There is no "tonnage" rule, except in areas of restricted navigation, as above- the 500 ton rule inside pilotage limits. 

If you can keep clear of any larger vessel so there is no collision risk and you'll pass outside the prohibited zone, well and good. If not, then the rules say once there is any perceived collision risk, the stand on vessel is REQUIRED to stand on, so the burdened vessel can make the required changes to create the separation needed. Before that, make any changes early and large, so they are obvious to the other skipper. The colregs are there for good reason, and from a long history of incidents. 

Please follow the rules, don't make up your own - it wont go well for you in court!

If you don't understand this, please go and get some training.

[K4309 144]

29 minutes ago, Island Time said:

Come on guys, the rules are there so that other skippers know what your are (likely/supposed) to do.

There is no "tonnage" rule, except in areas of restricted navigation, as above- the 500 ton rule inside pilotage limits. 

If you can keep clear of any larger vessel so there is no collision risk and you'll pass outside the prohibited zone, well and good. If not, then the rules say once there is any perceived collision risk, the stand on vessel is REQUIRED to stand on, so the burdened vessel can make the required changes to create the separation needed. Before that, make any changes early and large, so they are obvious to the other skipper. The colregs are there for good reason, and from a long history of incidents. 

Please follow the rules, don't make up your own - it wont go well for you in court!

If you don't understand this, please go and get some training.

This is when we need one of those youtibue videos of a sailing yacht getting ran down by a very large ship, cause they were sailing, or on starboard or something, but overlooked all the other rules like the shipping channels, were under pilot, RAM etc etc.

I understand exactly what you are saying IT, esp with regards to the stand on vessel, but when you are in a yacht that can spin on a dime, looking at how to pass a cruise ship that takes 3nm to turn, I think it is far easier for everyone if you take early, obvious action to stay out of it's way, so you don't even get close enough to become the stand on vessel.

Noting that the Harbour Bylaws are an overlay of the Colregs, so anywhere south of Whangaparaoa, the 'might is right' rule does have some legal substance.

[Island Time 1,175]

The colregs also say that both vessels must avoid collision.

The stand on vessel only maintains course and speed until it's obvious that the burdened vessel is not going to alter course/speed.

Then at that point the stand on vessel must slow down, back up, or change course as required to avoid a collision.

There is NO might is right rule.

Saying a yacht can get run over in a channel by a vessel over 500 ton means the yacht was in the wrong. It's unlikely the ship's crew will die.....

A prudent skipper (of the yacht) might elect to stay out of the channel altogether, or cross it at 90 deg when clear. A yacht needs a lot less water than a ship.... and there is no collision risk out of the shipping channel! 

[K4309 144]

1 hour ago, Island Time said:

The colregs also say that both vessels must avoid collision.

 

A prudent skipper (of the yacht) might elect to stay out of the channel altogether, or cross it at 90 deg when clear. A yacht needs a lot less water than a ship.... and there is no collision risk out of the shipping channel! 

I understand you are correct in the technicalities of the rules IT. I guess what I am saying is a combination of your two points above. A prudent skipper will just stay out of the way of heavy shipping. The long extension of this is to meet his colregs requirements of avoiding a collision.

I'm yet to see a situation where a yacht can't maneuver out of the way of a large ship, but the same large ship can maneuver out of the way of that yacht*

I verbalise this 'prudent skipper' behaviour (to just stay well clear of heavy shipping) as the 'might as right' rule.

 

*I have two experiences of yachts not being able to get out of the way of heavy shipping. In both cases the local rules gave the heavy shipping right of way.

One was a yacht I was on ran out of diesel in the middle of the westbound shipping lane in the English channel, and was becalmed, and they we had a bit of fog. The second was an offshore cruiser with dirty diesel, becalmed in the shipping channel off Cowes (just near Prince Consort bouy if I recall). Both situations warranted VHF warnings broadcast to all shipping, and both situations resulted in nearby yachts stepping in to tow the subject yacht clear of the heavy shipping as a response to the VHF warnings. (in the one with the cruiser off Cowes, it was my race boat that went and towed them clear).

The situation in the westbound shipping lane becalmed in the fog was a laugh a minute. All crew were on-deck, in LJ's, with the storm jib up (bright orange) in the calm. It is fair to say we were very "uncomfortable" with the situation. The back story was that we were returning from a RORC race to the Channel Islands. I was a watch leader, and was concerned about our diesel levels and forecast calms on the way home. I woke the skipper during his off-watch to ask / suggest we go into St Peter Port for diesel. Other than not being too happy at being woken, he was concerned we'd miss the tidal gate off Cherbourg (I think it was that one) if we did divert for fuel, so pushed on. The rest they say is history. Probably the most galling thing of that incident was the yacht that turned around to tow us clear of the shipping lane was the same one that won our class... Clearly far better sailors than us.

[Island Time 1,175]

35 minutes ago, K4309 said:

I understand you are correct in the technicalities of the rules IT. I guess what I am saying is a combination of your two points above. A prudent skipper will just stay out of the way of heavy shipping. The long extension of this is to meet his colregs requirements of avoiding a collision.

This is complying. Make your alterations clear and early.

Your other examples are a vessel NUC - not able to make way in a controlled manner. Most yachts don't carry the correct lights for that (red over red - skippers dead!) or day shapes (two balls - a balls up!) and a VHF Securite call on 16 to alert any approaching vessel of your position is sensible. DSC works well for an approaching ship.

[Cameron 70]

13 hours ago, Psyche said:

So you give way to containerships only?

And Stewarts!

 

[Black Panther 1,501]

The problem lies in there being the need for an assessment by the skipper.  When is it appropriate to drop the rules  and save yourself? One mile? Half mile, 100metres?.

Really all I'm saying us i will err on the side of caution.  And I'm always astounded at skippers of small recreational vessels who push to the limits (even to the point of collision) and get indignant about it. What's easier, screaming on the vhf and firing off flares, or coming up 10 degrees for a few minutes?

[Psyche 534]

I agree, courtesy matters and being aware that right does not mean safe. I had one with a commercial fishing boat steaming back to AK in the Motuihe channel, we were tacking home as well and crossed him. The obligation was on him to keep clear and i thought he would but by the time I realised he wasnt altering course we were committed,  we cleared him fine but as we passed there was no one in the wheelhouse! Then a man appeared and started shaking his fist! 

Lesson one, their wheelhouse may be empty, literally or figuratively!

[funlovincriminal 134]

Google "Halifax Explosion" for worse case scenario when the rules are left on a shelf

[K4309 144]

1 hour ago, funlovincriminal said:

Google "Halifax Explosion" for worse case scenario when the rules are left on a shelf

On the morning of 6 December 1917, the French cargo ship SS Mont-Blanc collided with the Norwegian vessel SS Imo in the waters of Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. The Mont-Blanc, laden with high explosives, caught fire and exploded, devastating the Richmond district of Halifax. At least 1,782 people were killed, largely in Halifax and Dartmouth, by the blast, debris, fires, or collapsed buildings, and an estimated 9,000 others were injured. The blast was the largest human-made explosion at the time.^[1] It released the equivalent energy of roughly 2.9 kilotons of TNT (12 TJ).^[2]

Mont-Blanc was under orders from the French government to carry her cargo from New York City via Halifax to Bordeaux, France. At roughly 8:45 am, she collided at low speed, approximately one knot (1.2 mph or 1.9 km/h), with the unladen Imo, chartered by the Commission for Relief in Belgium to pick up a cargo of relief supplies in New York. On the Mont-Blanc, the impact damaged benzol barrels stored on deck, leaking vapours which were ignited by sparks from the collision, setting off a fire on board that quickly grew out of control. Approximately 20 minutes later at 9:04:35 am, the Mont-Blanc exploded.

[waikiore 349]

I had an interesting one many years ago -approaching the gate off the tamaki river in a tug towing a barge at 10pm fully dark, showing correct lights a subritzky (now Sealink) car ferry came straight for us on an opposing course heading out to Waiheke (there was plenty of depth) they kept on towards us despite me making a radical turn off course to avoid them and calling on the VHF , meanwhile I was buzzing my sleeping crew up from down below on the emergency horn and signalling by horn to them -as they swept by I could see straight into the wheelhouse -where they were watching TV!!

Their helmsman looked very pale as he saw us..