Gas out, induction in!

[LBD 128]

39 minutes ago, Leftred said:

Worksafe have no authority over a pleasure craft/non-commercial vessel.

This particular matter is not the boat, but the import approval for the gas bottles to be used in New Zealand.

[LBD 128]

And Worksafe may also be considereing the refillers.

 

 

[Leftred 45]

9 minutes ago, LBD said:

This particular matter is not the boat, but the import approval for the gas bottles to be used in New Zealand.

Ah yes, understood.

[CarpeDiem 430]

Quote

LPG installed to current NZ Standards?

Kind of a conundrum isn't it?

How can you be compliant with a standard which according to that standard, doesn't apply, if your installation predates said standard?

Personally I think that saying I am compliant, without making it clear that the standard does not apply to me would be misleading my insurer and imho goes against the well established doctrine of utmost good faith... and I might find my insurance revoked in the event of a claim. 

ymmv 

[CarpeDiem 430]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

If it complies with the relevant NZ standard, what have Worksafe got to do with it?

Because Worksafe controls the secondary legislation which specifies what gas bottles can be imported to, or manufactured in, NZ.

It used to be all under MBIE but when Worksafe split this went with them. 

[K4309 261]

1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

Kind of a conundrum isn't it?

How can you be compliant with a standard which according to that standard, doesn't apply, if your installation predates said standard?

Personally I think that saying I am compliant, without making it clear that the standard does not apply to me would be misleading my insurer and imho goes against the well established doctrine of utmost good faith... and I might find my insurance revoked in the event of a claim. 

ymmv 

I've just been talking to various professionals about getting the "Condition Assessment" done.

On the LPC certification, one surveyor I've spoken to is perfectly happy to certify and listed the requirements it needs to met, which wouldn't be too hard to achieve. They were:

1) No hose clips on pipe run, crimps only (Noting I need a certified person to change hose clips to crimps, I can't do that myself. I don't actually know what is onboard)

2) An LPG alarm in the bilge

3) dedicated gas locker, draining directly overboard.

I didn't realise LPG alarms were a thing, so I will definitely go and get one anyway. I already have a carbon monoxide alarm.

 

There is a HUGE variance on perception of what is needed to be done. And the implications of issues. One guy I spoke to says a full out of water survey is required. In addition, where I phoned the insurer and he said out of date flares aren't an issue, the survey was indicating that things like that will jeopardise renewal (as in, it's a black mark, and too many and they wont cover you). Additionally a boat was found with non-structural rot and insurance wont be renewed until it is fixed. 

Noting that what this guy was saying appears to conflict with what the report form says, which is "This report is not classed as a full condition survey and is purely for underwriting purposes. We accept that all care has been taken but no responsibility is accepted for latent or other defects"

It is a major can of worms.

[K4309 261]

Looks like LPG alarms are available and cheaper than I thought.

Starting at $80 for a wired model at Burnsco and $200 for a battery powered / independent unit.

I see one of these in my future.

LPG Gas Detector | Burnsco

[Frank 157]

14 hours ago, ballystick said:

Gas fitters can issue a compliance cert that is suitable for the insurance company, it includes signs, new hose, auto shut off, gas pressure test, CO meter etc. it can be expensive depending on each installation

That's what we did, we installed the copper gas line to keep the cost down, the Gas fitter did the final hookup and test etc.

[Ex Machina 366]

15 hours ago, K4309 said:

I've just been talking to various professionals about getting the "Condition Assessment" done.

On the LPC certification, one surveyor I've spoken to is perfectly happy to certify and listed the requirements it needs to met, which wouldn't be too hard to achieve. They were:

1) No hose clips on pipe run, crimps only (Noting I need a certified person to change hose clips to crimps, I can't do that myself. I don't actually know what is onboard)

2) An LPG alarm in the bilge

3) dedicated gas locker, draining directly overboard.

I didn't realise LPG alarms were a thing, so I will definitely go and get one anyway. I already have a carbon monoxide alarm.

 

There is a HUGE variance on perception of what is needed to be done. And the implications of issues. One guy I spoke to says a full out of water survey is required. In addition, where I phoned the insurer and he said out of date flares aren't an issue, the survey was indicating that things like that will jeopardise renewal (as in, it's a black mark, and too many and they wont cover you). Additionally a boat was found with non-structural rot and insurance wont be renewed until it is fixed. 

Noting that what this guy was saying appears to conflict with what the report form says, which is "This report is not classed as a full condition survey and is purely for underwriting purposes. We accept that all care has been taken but no responsibility is accepted for latent or other defects"

It is a major can of worms.

We have compliance and the lpg alarm is at the stove . Definitely getting one for the bilge there’s an 8 metre run of pipe from the bottle to the stove . If there was a leak between the bottle and stove it would take a few bottles worth of gas to set the alarm off which is about knee high off the sole and the sole is waist high off the bottom of bilge . Big boom , no more talking .

[khayyam 71]

It's interesting discussion in light of the other active thread about electrical fires. No option is perfectly safe of course!

[Black Panther 1,589]

Having lived most of my life with gas with no problem,  and having had an electrical fire on board, maybe I'm slightly biased.

[K4309 261]

3 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

Having lived most of my life with gas with no problem,  and having had an electrical fire on board, maybe I'm slightly biased.

A lot of people used to drink and drive and not wear seatbelts and didn't manage to kill themselves either. The number of people that still smoke and state they haven't died of cancer also amazes me.

Noting though that these gas cert issues are driven by companies behind insurance companies. They are not based in logic. Having discussed this directly with my insurance co representative, he fully states they do not have specialist knowledge in boating, they are insurance people. But then quasi impose nonsense requirements on boaties (many examples other than the gas thing)

The whole issues is around the need for 3rd party insurance to access basic marine services, like haul out, and of course a mooring or marina if you don't own a completely private one. Looking at the used boat market, I'm coming to the conclusion my boat isn't worth insuring for its capital value. It isn't a million dollar euro bling thing (but sails upwind like a freight train).

I am genuinely interested in how you get on without insurance when accessing services BP? PM me if you don't want to say publicly.

[K4309 261]

1 hour ago, Ex Machina said:

We have compliance and the lpg alarm is at the stove . Definitely getting one for the bilge there’s an 8 metre run of pipe from the bottle to the stove . If there was a leak between the bottle and stove it would take a few bottles worth of gas to set the alarm off which is about knee high off the sole and the sole is waist high off the bottom of bilge . Big boom , no more talking .

That sounds like the classic example of something that is complaint and certified but about as useful as tits on a bull.

Serious question - I've been told I need an LPG alarm at the lowest point in the bilge. How then do you keep it in good working order, given the risk of water in the bilge? Being a bilge that is where the water is designed to go in the event of some sort of ingress. Even something as simple as putting the speedo log in.

What are good brands / options for LPG alarms, I see prices range from $80 to $300 ish. All appear to require hard wiring for a power source. I'd prefer a battery operated unit but it appears the power draw (100mA) is not feasible for a battery option?

The next question, part of my logic is to get the cheap ones and put more than one in. My initial logic is one in the gas locker (where a leak in my view is most likely if I screw up the threads at change over, if the regulator fails or the bottle leaks as in the example at Oneroa on Waitangi Day) and another in the bilge under the general area of the stove, in line with the pipe run. The trick with that will be to put it high enough up to reduce risk of bilge water ingress while keeping it low enough down to be effective.

Do people think the $80 options are OK, and is there any advantage going to a $200 or $300 option? My logic is to go cheap and have more of them.

[waikiore 399]

If they are still using the figaro sniffers-I dont have much confidence as we used to test them for a Government department and had a roughly 50% fail rate on the gas detectors

☠️

[CarpeDiem 430]

1 hour ago, K4309 said:

Serious question - I've been told I need an LPG alarm at the lowest point in the bilge. How then do you keep it in good working order, given the risk of water in the bilge?

I got told to put it above the lowest point at a point where I felt it would not get wet.  Gas fitter was quite clear that I knew the boat and that I could make the call.  We have a nice teak grate at the bottom of the steps adjacent to the stove.

When racing pulling in a scalloped kite, or in severe rain it can end up with with a few inches of water in it that slops around. Coming downstairs with soaking wet weather gear its a great place to strip off...

It's always a compromise and is another item that has to be maintained, checked and loved.

All up we have 14 independent disconnected "bilges" under the floor boards - it's impractical to put a sensor in each...

[Black Panther 1,589]

1 hour ago, K4309 said:

A lot of people used to drink and drive and not wear seatbelts and didn't manage to kill themselves either. The number of people that still smoke and state they haven't died of cancer also amazes me.

Noting though that these gas cert issues are driven by companies behind insurance companies. They are not based in logic. Having discussed this directly with my insurance co representative, he fully states they do not have specialist knowledge in boating, they are insurance people. But then quasi impose nonsense requirements on boaties (many examples other than the gas thing)

The whole issues is around the need for 3rd party insurance to access basic marine services, like haul out, and of course a mooring or marina if you don't own a completely private one. Looking at the used boat market, I'm coming to the conclusion my boat isn't worth insuring for its capital value. It isn't a million dollar euro bling thing (but sails upwind like a freight train).

I am genuinely interested in how you get on without insurance when accessing services BP? PM me if you don't want to say publicly.

I currently have insurance.  I have never had it for offshore sailing. I have been without it in the past. Being without it doesn't get me all hot and sweaty. I maintain my boat and I'm quite confident in my ability to handle it.

I only haulout rarely, twice in 8 years (yay coppercoat). The marinas have only got stroppy about such things relatively recently.  I have cheated on occasion.  I would have no problem switching to 3rd party if it would avoid some of the nonsense and unnecessary expense. Or getting something short term just for hauling . Don't know if that is even available. 

I'll stay with the current mob for now who so far haven't asked for anything.  Even though the annual fee continues to increase.  If/when I get a request I will address it then. Or sell the boat.

[DrWatson 375]

I wired a gas detector into the fridge circuit, reasoning that if I’m onboard the fridge is on.
As soon as I get onboard I turn on the power/fridge so I can have a cold beer after hauling all the sails out of the way etc. The alarm screams bloody murder 5x as it does its start test - which always scares the bejesus outta me, then I remember wtf the noise is. Later I go out to the gas locker and connect the gas bottle to the gas line.
 

The detector sits in the bilge between the keel pump and the back of the fridge in the cabinetry that the saloon table is mounted on. I reasoned that any gas leak is more likely either at the stove, or at the bottle, and not along the copper line. Any leaking gas will flow downhill to that point where the detector is. I think it cost me about 120euro. 
 

I also have a CO monitor/alarm mounted about waist height in the stb cabin entry - which should pick up any fumes leaking from the engine room, any CO leaking in from the diesel heater (this is the first outlet in the ducting) and anything from poor cooking combustion. This runs on a 12y non-replaceable lithium battery. When it’s done I’ll chuck it and buy a new one.

i mounted a nice expensive smoke detector up in the standing head space of the technical cabin. All switches and so forth and engine access are here. It had a 10y battery life. After 4 months it went off at 4am while we were gunkholing in a rather less than optimal place/weather. In about 2sec two mostly naked sailors and the crewman on watch were on deck with torches trying to figure out wtf was going on - all of us having mistaken it for a positional anchor alarm. There was no smoke, the thing had just fritzed out. Just have a cheap one now.