Handicaps

[Guest]

Hey guys _ I'm a boat owner now. Essentially a cruiser, but there are a couple or three races I haven't done before that I would consider. One of them was pretty much IRC. It didn't take long to figure out that didn't suit me. The others are PHRF, but I really don't have much respect for PHRF. As KM said in another thread, it's just another tax to do a couple of races a year.

But he also said he always goes to racetrack to see how he did.

 

Here are my idle thoughts on a quiet Tuesday:

 

There are probably a number of others like KM who get PHRF only to do the Coastal and/or the Simrad SSANZ series, maybe Tauranga or an alternative.

What would happen if SSANZ (always prepared to think independently) and NZMHYC (no longer constrained by sponsors and event managers) simply came out and said "this year we will use Racetrack"?

 

Would the punters prefer this? Might it up the number of entries by removing one more obstacle? Would that be enough to drag some of the other races along so that PHRF dies a natural death and Racetrack becomes "the" handicapping system of choice?

 

I know Racetrack isn't perfect - Mark would be the first to point out its deficiencies - but it seems to be the best we have , by a lot. Even pay Mark something for allowing the use of his baby.

 

Would the two clubs just mentioned (plus Tauranga) be interested in canvassing opinion from last years entrants? Should they get on to it now while there is still plenty of time?

 

Am I just full of sh*t and should shut up and go hide in a corner?

[Hotrod 0]

We're going down the Race Track route for the hotrod series. To us it seems like a logical route to take.

[ballystick 73]

It is funny you should be thinking about handicaps and the various systems. At TYPBC we are using the yacht systems handicap software for our summer series. This is a performance only system and the better you do, the higher your handicap will get, previously we used a club handicap system that was administered by a committee. This system used observations (new sails, new crew etc.) and results to provide each yacht with a handicap, these basically stayed the same until they required adjustment if at all. The result was that races were mainly won by the same few boats and there were heaps of complaints directed towards the committee - much like PHRF. After the new system was brought in, we had some teething difficulties and we had complaints, not so many but mainly from the same people - the end result was similar to the previous club h/cap amazingly.

No matter what system that is going to be used, there will be no ideal solution - people will never all agree. However Racetrack ratings are looking very similar to our yacht systems ratings, probably is because they are both performance based.

Anyway, I will ask our Akld-Tga race committee to consider using the Racetrack ratings, with respect to Mark, as we are willing to cater for the yacht crews/skippers where we can - hoping for a good hotrod fleet by the way - so we will use our database if we can find one (a hacker got in 2 yrs ago) to canvas racers views. Looking at mine I would prefer the PHRF as it is much lower, relatively but I would be agreeable to a majority decision if it was in the best interests.

[Jon 360]

Speaking for SSANZ (on a non official level)

We won't do handicaps as that's where 99% of problems come from.

As for RT vs PHRF the main problem I see is that we are a YNZ affiliated organisation so not the best look to flick them the bird so to speak.

 

Personally I'm in the same boat with needing a PHRF for a couple of events per year and maybe it needs something like this to force a change, but I must say that PHRF has improved quite a bit over the last year or so. ( marks work also I believe )

 

Also I've found over the years that the better you sail the better you do regardless of system.

[Battleship 100]

Love the Racetrack as it adjusts rapidly whereas PHRF seems to take a few years before it matches the boat/crews actual performance, agreed PHRF has improved over the last few years.

I think there is a place for both, perhaps there could be a racetrack Handicap prize alongside PHRF (though if PHRF wasn't compulsory I think it would probably die).

 

Andy I think the new system is very good now and about the best compromise, at least it's a level playing field, and if a boat sails well with no mistakes they will generally get a result.

Funny how our rating and results are now almost a mirror of racetrack.

[ballystick 73]

Good comments Will

[ex Elly 197]

Ballistic is correct - there will never be a perfect handicap system. If you are worried about that sail one design.

 

Re PHRF, I believe MarkM is working with the PHRF people to make it more accurate. The more clubs and yachts that race under PHRF the more accurate it will become.

[Kiteroa 8]

I hope YNZ are looking after Mark in some financial capacity for his services.

[Guest]

Well, certainly is good to hear that people are happy that PHRF is on the mend. I'll crawl back into my hole and do some more thinking.

[markm 30]

Have got an awful lot from sailing W/T. Like many here and many more quiet in the background, am happy to give a little back where I can.

[Jon 360]

Have got an awful lot from sailing W/T. Like many here and many more quiet in the background, am happy to give a little back where I can.

 

Give that man a bottle of rum and watch your handicap drop !

[armchairadmiral 411]

Funny thing, where we sail the same boats usually win too!.These are the boats that usually start well,have good tactics,good crews,good sails and put in lots of effort in preparation. Boats that don't often feature rarely do any of these and moan and groan about their handicaps as the only way they can figure out to get a result.Sometimes they refer to the top boats as "lucky"! Guess the real question about any handicapping system is - is the function to penalise good performance or reward poor performance ?.... or vice versa ?

[Cameron 77]

Guess the real question about any handicapping system is - is the function to penalise good performance or reward poor performance ?.... or vice versa ?

 

Absolutely! I've said for a while now that any handicapper/handicap committee should first sit down and write a statement of objectives for what the handicaps are trying to achieve. Once this has been done any complaints received in regards to handicaps should also be considered against the objectives. At the end of the season the handicapper's performance can also be reviewed against how well those objectives have been met. No handicap system will please everyone... but I believe that with a clear statement of objectives you can at least judge if the handicapping is being done fairly and consistently...

[Guest]

Totally agree Cameron, clubs need to be transparent otherwise we will get the same old complaints arising.

 

Armchairadmiral, it sounds like your club has it right, but I bet it's a minority. At least one of the series that I race in a certain boat has started well in every race this year, made no major mistakes, always been first to get kite up at the top mark and then watched the others struggle to raise theirs in the next 1-2 minutes and then won on line by miles. In almost every race. Number of handicap victories = 0. The skipper and crew are pissed off, they are amateurs being penalised for good performance compared to their peers. The handicapper cannot be expected to be omni-present, but I struggle to accept that poor performance relative to boats that do well on the water can be rewarded with a handicap victory

[madyottie 82]

poor performance relative to boats that do well on the water can be rewarded with a handicap victory

 

I thought this was the point? To allow those that aren't as talented or don't have the time/money/circle of mates, to still have some chance.

 

I've always felt that handicaps should reflect the boats performance on any given day relative to its normal performance. So if that tail-ender manages to somehow get things right on the day, and finishes right up with the leaders, then they get rewarded for doing well.

 

Otherwise the silverware almost always goes to the guy with the deepest pockets, who may be more able to pay for new sails, pro crew, or whatever.

 

That's not taking away from their sailing ability, but, as the old sailmakers ad read, "Boatspeed makes you a tactical genius".

[Cameron 77]

That's exactly why objectives need to be stated...

Is the handicap to reward the "best sailed" boat, the "most improved" boat or be a social welfare benefit to share the prizes around. For whatever reason it seems very difficult to find out what each clubs objectives are.. so you can't even tell if they are doing a good job of what they are aiming to achieve.

[raz88 96]

Back to the original question, as someone who last year considered entering the simrads, having to organise a PHRF was a factor that put me off.

 

I suppose just a lack of organisation on my part, but there's a reasonable amount of work involved for a weekend warrior like myself who's boat is generally full of cruising gear in getting prepped for a decent race, and the cost/hassle of organising a phrf cert just made the "to do" list look that much more daunting. And having the boat prepped and ready to go is useful for other racing, so I'd have been more prepared to do that stuff - having a PHRF does nothing for me the rest of the year...

[Guest]

The answer is One Design.

 

Handicaps are for the handicapped.

 

Sailors v sailors rules!

 

Yes, a fleet of Stewart's, 88's, First 45's turning up at the start of a gold cup race would be fantastic, however, that is knot our reality and never will be. Cameron's points are on the money for a way forward, until that day arrives we continue to race with the mess we have. The next option is to upskill all the 1020's to hard labours numbers and all live happily ever after.

 

handicaps are knot for the handicapped, handicaps are to keep the also rans turning up next week and the week after etc.

 

A measurement system like IRC with defined public objectives as Cameron suggests would be a step up from the current if I moan a lot at the phrf/club/ cloak and dagger system my handicrap will be adjusted bullshit.

[Guest]

With the deepest respect for my woolly faced rum swilling sheep chasing island dwelling amigo (just saw a John Wayne movie), rubbish times 2..... sort of. Hi cutie

 

1 - Don't forget arguably NZ's largest racing OD class, the H28?

 

2 - There are H/C systems in use in the Akl region today that work damn well. As mentioned by Cameron earlier the two I have in mind** do have an objective which is to get all boats on the finishline at the same time on corrected time. Obviously that's hardly ever going to happen due to the multitude of variances yacht races have but generally both Clubs do damn well. Both clubs have systems that chance each race and have things in place to stop rouge results screwing the pooch. In both clubs cases any one boat will be either a hero or zero for very few races before it's brought to the fold. I do struggle to see how either could be improved, even though they always can be somewhere. WBC and PCC I'm talking here.

 

** - I say 2 as I've used them both in series where I haven't others but I'm damn sure there will be more than 2 both in Akl and over the country.

 

PHRF will remain a dead duck unless it moves faster than a stalagmite grows. Again as Cameron mentioned earlier PHRF doesn't seem to know what it wants to achieve. YNZ could pay someone $40 an hour for 4 hours a week, 52 weeks of the year, chuck in 1K for expenses and still have some PHRF fee coin left over for a damn fine cocktail party each year from the fees it takes, or it could have 2-3 years ago when I sussed. That could be done by someone from home. Or they could pay Mark to do what he does now with RT.

 

Personally I'd go with RT as it does what PHRF wants to do but with 'wait there's more......' in features. I do like the % thingy, 101% or more means a good day on the water, less than 100% means too much piss drinkin

 

Saying that and knot having bothered with a PHRF this year, it is good to see people commenting here PHRF is on the improvement, I have heard that elsewhere also. If some damn good and about bloody time.

[PaulR 3]

PHRF

 

Once upon a time we could all access YNZ's Boat search, find a boat, a sail number or a whole class of boats, then click and see their PHRF data.

 

About 2+ years ago at a YNZ meeting, it was promised things would get better and YNZ was working on the database / web site.

 

Yes there is a new web look but the BOAT SEARCH functionallity has disappeared . . . . or at least it has when I was looking stuff up and that was just a few days ago.

 

Is this progress

 

I'm knot blaming MarkM; rather I'm saying Racetrack is streets and time warps ahead of the PHRF.

 

Racetrack could even supply MONTHLY PHRF's for clubs without batting an eyelid.

 

What would happen if SIMRAD & Coatal Classic entries could choose:

 

use PHRF at $60 pa OR

 

use Racetrack at say $30 for MarkM

 

User pays . . . and these internet users need to SEE what they are paying for.

 

I'm told Beta Video recorders were better than VHS recorders so why did VHS become cheaper and win the marketplace.

 

Similar battle now with Blueray; knot that I have one.