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SSANZ Safety at Sea Two Handed Triple Series


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My view on the protest and "Jibtop's"

 

First SSANZ NOR/SI

 

1.11 In the designated Cruising/NonSpinnaker divisions, no spinnakers or extras may be set. Extras are defined as sails not normally used to advantage to windward. Headsails may be boomed out using spinnaker booms but shall only be carried on a permanent load bearing forestay with only one headsail per forestay.

 

Key words being "to advantage"... For most boats using a Jibtop would be a disadvantage to windward and therefore not allowed. Activator presented a case where they say it is too their advantage to use their Jibtop upwind in lighter conditions (which has been apparently cut to allow for use on the wind as well).

 

If later in the series such conditions occurred and Activator failed to use the Jibtop (unless having a very good reason) they could well be protested again as it would be expected that you would use the most advantageous sail...

 

 

NOTE the above is my thoughts only and any ruling would have to be made by a protest panel

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It's an interesting debate Cameron and would have thought there was prior protests to work off.

 

FWIW, to me a second key word in it is windward. You've interpreted that to be on the wind in which case jibtops would certainly be a marginal call most of the time.

 

My view though is that windward is any angle less than 90 twa which would make them allowable.

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I'd side with Mark rather than Cam on this one. Basically rum race rules.

 

All the sail needs to be able to do is hank to the forestay and be able to go to windward as little as 89 degrees. Some rum racers have specifically built sails, big and baggy with only a few hanks that they use downwind. Totally legal.

 

In rum races you will often see boats peeling from jibs upwind to genoas or "rum race specials" downwind

 

To say you have to use the most effective upwind sail is just wrong as that would leave open to protest any boat that chooses the wrong sail. i.e. two 88's that chose different headsails #1 or #2, the one that wins could protest the other out because he didn't use the most advantaged sail :-)

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I'd side with Mark rather than Cam on this one. Basically rum race rules.

 

All the sail needs to be able to do is hank to the forestay and be able to go to windward as little as 89 degrees. Some rum racers have specifically built sails, big and baggy with only a few hanks that they use downwind. Totally legal.

 

In rum races you will often see boats peeling from jibs upwind to genoas or "rum race specials" downwind

 

To say you have to use the most effective upwind sail is just wrong as that would leave open to protest any boat that chooses the wrong sail. i.e. two 88's that chose different headsails #1 or #2, the one that wins could protest the other out because he didn't use the most advantaged sail :-)

 

Seems there is a big difference between the technicalities of the rule, and the intent of the rule....

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Once upon a time . . . all the latest yachts were "cutter" rigged.

A fine English tradition, where by ALL sails were high cut clews.

:silent:

So what is new :?:

 

:eh:

 

Bring Back the Quadlaterial Jibs :!: :think: :think:

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Yeah the wording of that one is always a bit tricky really. If you take the SR's they have often carried the Code Zero's to advantage upwind in the light - so can they use them if they went restricted?

 

No yacht club has really worked out a wording that works well yet that i have seen.

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Has to be hanked to the forestay, doesn't say how many hanks or how loose they can be though :wink:

 

Best way to solve it is to allow only one headsail to be used other than damage replacement. Not too many people will knife their 3DL jib just to put up a genoa for the runs.

 

Not sure what you'd do when the 30knot squall comes through and you're carrying the number 1. And headsail changes between #1's and #3's etc are good for restricted racing, provided the sails are the usual ones carried to windward, not rule cheaters.....

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It's a curly one alright

 

Personally I don't have a problem with reaching sails,

At the end of the day these divs are to get more boats out on the track and if you wish to make the effort to change headsails for each leg then good on you, as long as they are hanked to the forstay

The thing is there is only two of you and you see it often with open divs were on a short leg boats will change sails to go .5 of a knot faster but loose the same distance getting it up and end up at the next mark in the same spot !

Maybe what you need is twin furlers ?

Or at least twin forstays ?

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Saying sail must be attached to forestay and only 1 sail can be flown from the forestay at any one time would be sufficient enough? Sounds sensible stops code zeros, spinnakers/gennakers and downwind extras

 

Everyone will be poling out downwind, reaching you are limited to your headsail restrictions are that you are rated to anyway ie stops people using oversized headsails.

 

If you are going to limit headsails you might as well go one further and say you have to finish with what you start with, but that then opens the can of worms of what to do with people with furling headsails. End of the day is just being silly though.

 

Cheers, SS

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I'd side with Mark rather than Cam on this one. Basically rum race rules.

 

All the sail needs to be able to do is hank to the forestay and be able to go to windward as little as 89 degrees. Some rum racers have specifically built sails, big and baggy with only a few hanks that they use downwind. Totally legal.

 

In rum races you will often see boats peeling from jibs upwind to genoas or "rum race specials" downwind

 

To say you have to use the most effective upwind sail is just wrong as that would leave open to protest any boat that chooses the wrong sail. i.e. two 88's that chose different headsails #1 or #2, the one that wins could protest the other out because he didn't use the most advantaged sail :-)

 

Firstly... PCC rum race rules are different (PCC is looser). SSANZ and RNZYS rum races rules more closely align.

Secondly... I have asked and been told that RNZYS don't recall having had any protests in regards to the "Rum Race Special" type sails we regularly see used in the rum race E Division.

 

So is it legal or just "untested" to date?

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Part of the problem I think is the intent isn't actually clear.

 

.I'ts always been my impression that the rule is intended to allow headsails but disallow downwind only sails.

 

A jib top is primarily an upwind sail, albeit not one intended for close hauled angles and it is at heart a headsail.

 

Putting it another way, if you'd still use the sail when sail restrictions don't apply, then it counts as a rum race sail, if you'd be using a kite or gennaker instead, then it doesn't.

 

If the intent is for close hauled sails only, then a little rewording is probably in order to make that intent clearer, change windward to 'close hauled' or something similar.

 

Guessing the original wording was developed at a time when non overlapping rigs were somewhat less common and sails designed for tight reaching also less common.

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I think "intent" is similar to "spirit" of what the race is intended to achieve.the whole idea of rum races in the first place was to minimise sail handling so one could just enjoy the rum!

I accept that sails have to be changed for strength of wind but using reaching sails only on reaching and running legs is against the "spirit" of what was intended, so therefore I believe tighter wording is required.

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