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YNZ Race Regulations Cat1-Cat5; Anomalies and concerns


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There's quite a few material differences between the keelboat and trailer yacht rules. They obviously don't sit in the same room when putting them together.

I suspect the keelboat guys push the limits a bit more and the trailer yacht guys are mainly a bunch of Noelex 25 owners trying to hold on to their line honours victories

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17 hours ago, Deep Purple said:

They obviously don't sit in the same room when putting them together.

Too much copy n paste.

I managed to get some tidied up for the last edition, someone had copy n pasted EU speak into a book for NZ speakers which made it all a bit WTF?? But there is still a lot of dross and conflicts that should be sorted but then as no one really looks that close any longer the flaws aren't really much to worry about.

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18 hours ago, Deep Purple said:

There's quite a few material differences between the keelboat and trailer yacht rules. They obviously don't sit in the same room when putting them together.

I suspect the keelboat guys push the limits a bit more and the trailer yacht guys are mainly a bunch of Noelex 25 owners trying to hold on to their line honours victories

Originally , the KORC committee had a NZTYA rep sit with them to align/or resolve/guide such perceived conflicts in the regs ( makes sense No?)  As I understand it this was done away with during the last review.  The NZTYA regs in places are onerous and archaic in my IMHO particularly with respect to the faster TY's ; and especially more recent additions such as DP and FForty.  Although as a Cat 3/ Cat 2 keelboat owner a number of the regs impose significant ongoing cost which are a clear barrier to entry and participation.

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Can some one please point out the use of a fog horn,if in dense fog very hard to direct what direction  it is coming from.So you have a fleet of 15 vessels all horning away at 1 long/2 short every 2 minutes.Utter confusion.     As per international collision regs 22.35 yet nothing YNZ apart from carrying a horn??

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Ynz cannot override the colregs. In fog, you must proceed at a safe speed. If you cannot see at all, and have no radar, and can hear fog signals, stop until you are sure you are safe.

Same horn is used for manoeuvring, or the WTF signal (5 short).

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7 hours ago, Island Time said:

Ynz cannot override the colregs.

Yes they can. it is explicitly says so in the NZ Rules. You must follow the NZ Rules with respect to vessels not racing but if you are racing under theRRS the "coregs" to use your term do not apply unless the SI say so.

Nothing in this Part applies to a vessel participating in a race or training or coaching in relation to other vessels participating in such an activity, if the participants have agreed to comply with the International Sailing Federation Rules, prescribed by the International Sailing Federation.

 

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/rules/part-22/Part22-maritime-rule.pdf

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OK,  lets look into that: 

Yes the RRS (Racing rules of sailing ) does give some exceptions - passing close at more than 5 knots etc etc. However, there are fundamentals that it cannot change. FOG and restricted visibility is one. You will find this in the RRS;

48. FOG SIGNALS AND LIGHTS; TRAFFIC SEPARATION SCHEMES
48.1.
When safety requires, a boat shall sound fog signals and show lights as required by the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or applicable government rules.
 
So you are still governed by the colregs  (not my term, Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972 (COLREGs), in fog. 
 
You MUST sound fog signals, and stop completely if needed, in fog, even when racing.
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SSANZ Sailing Instructions always state Colregs apply between sunset and sunrise 

biggest  change is RRS allow you to push a boat up and windward boat must keep clear where as colregs are all about overtaking vessel keeps clear and passing port to port etc

over simplified but  quite different 

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The windward yacht gives way is part of the colregs Jon, rule 12.

Rule 12 (Sailing vessels)

 

(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;

(ii) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;

(iii) if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on her port or starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

 

The overtaking vessel though is completely different in the RRS and colregs...

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10 hours ago, Jon said:

colregs are all about overtaking vessel keeps clear and passing port to port etc

Port to port doesn't apply between sailing vessels, often misunderstood, likewise turning to starboard to avoid collision.

The responses required of power driven vessels are different from that of sailing yachts, worth a read if your not to up with the rules, most of the time you are sailing it will be under the Collision Prevention Rules, quoting the RRS to your insurance company isn't going to help if you weren't racing.

There are a couple of upticks in this thread to statements that are not technically correct, good indication of lack of understanding.

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Whether racing or cruising the collision rules will always over ride YNZ or any other local rules,including local bylaws from harbour master.Just where you find the harbour master rules remains a mystery.Use to be posted at various ramps,wharfs and seem to recall them at Westhaven.

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35 minutes ago, harrytom said:

Whether racing or cruising the collision rules will always over ride YNZ

HT, your just plain wrong, read the rules. I have already given you the clause and the link. Its what makes racing under RRS legal in NZ.

IT,  I already pointed out your technical error, HT seems to have missed it.

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BOIG, OK, I could have presented that better, but the gist and the actual law is the same - the RRS do have some specific exceptions to the colregs, for example the proximity/speed rules, but there are parts they have to have, incl the Fog/restricted visibility rules, which are  required by IMO, to which NZ is a signatory.

I provided the link above to the RRS that show the restricted visibility section points directly back to the colregs.

HT, sorry as BOIG says above, your statement is not correct. Local bylaws can and do alter the colregs.

Its the skippers responsibility to know the rules..... 

 

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Risk of collision ynz

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/sites/default/files/2018-10/YNZ Safety Regulations of Sailing 17-20 (Final) (small).pdf

2.0 SKIPPER’S (MASTER’S) RESPONSIBILITY, CREW RESPONSIBILITY

 

2.2 The Maritime Transport Act 1994 states that the master of the vessel is at all times responsible for the safety of the vessel, the safety of those on board, discipline on board and for complying with all maritime rules, regulations and bylaws. 2.3 Neither the establishment of these Safety Regulations, their use by Organising Authorities, nor the inspection of a yacht under these Regulations in any way limits or reduces the complete and unlimited responsibility of the skipper.

 

I take it from YNZ that in a situation where collision is enimate(port/starbord/luffing etc)if the give way vessels then the obligation is on the vessel who has rights to give way to avoid a collision then take action by form of protest.

 

I still claim a non racing vessel meets a racing vessel collision reg apply.

 

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That is absolutely true HT. The RRS is only for vessels racing. But for them, it gives some alterations to colregs... So the RRS DO override/alter the colregs in specific circumstances.

If you are racing, RRS apply to your vessel relating to others involved in the race,  colregs for every other vessel.

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All boats must slow down to 5 knots if they want to come within 50m of another vessel.

RRS are what allows racing yachts to exceed 5 knots within 50m. In this case RRS overrides colregs.

Harrytoms last post is quoting from the YNZ Safety rules.  These have no bearing on right of way.

 

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Hears some stuff to think about, quickly done so I stand to be corrected, in each case I believe there are subtle differences as to who is initially meant to do what, some are similar to the extent the actions are the same but some are quite different. Granted by the stage collision is imminent both are required to avoid collision, untill then its not quite so simple.

  1. Two Motor Vessels on collision Course Head on
  2. Two Motor Vessels on collision Course 90 deg to each other
  3. Two yachts racing on head on collision course, i.e. 180deg to each other. Windward boat on Starboard.
  4. Two yachts racing on head on collision course, i.e. 180deg to each other. Windward boat on Port.
  5. Two yachts racing on collision course on same tack, one beating the other going down wind, beating boat on Port
  6. Two yachts racing on collision course on same tack, one beating the other going down wind, beating boat on Starboard.
  7. Two yachts not racing, on collision course, one is motor sailing, in all the above situations...
  8. Two yachts one is racing, one not racing, on collision course....
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