YNZ Race Regulations Cat1-Cat5; Anomalies and concerns

[Ex Machina 390]

22 minutes ago, Deep Purple said:

They need to see bunks if it's a TY. No love for the STY rule that the boat was designed to

Ah crap now I kind of see what the issue was all those years ago . Might be cheaper and a lot less hassle just to go with a YNZ registration instead 

[Deep Purple 530]

It's the one size fits all approach. For example, as a trailer yacht I have to have 6.2hp outboard. As a keelboat/Sport trailer yacht I don't have to have an outboard at all. Why? Because the rule makers at the NZTYA race in admittedly pretty rough areas, Wellington, Littleton, Dunedin, Southern Lakes where things can turn nasty very quick. So a trailer yacht racing on Lake Ngaroto has to carry a 6.2 engine. Now you could align the TY rules with the others and just have the sailing instructions for certain events mandate a higher level of engine but no, socialism at work.

I can fly all around the north island with no issues at all. but if I want to fly to Queenstown I have undertake a mountain flying course because that area demands special respect. Thats how it should work.

Interesting article here - 2015 - https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/news/update-ciorc-committee

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/clubs/committee/ciorc

Individually this is an awesome team and I have the greatest respect for them. Collectively I can't see any progress for grass roots yachting. The safety rules have filled pages of anomalies in this thread alone. I was up till 2am last night reading every published NZTYA meeting minutes (suspended quite some time ago) and searching as much information as I can. Quite depressing. There are no published minutes for any meeting of COIRC or YNZ and negligible reporting via "Briefings"

But $100 here, $400 here, $85 here........ It costs $19 to change the ownership of a car but $85 to change the registration of a boat.......

And 4 lots of levies for 4 clubs ......

 

[splat 57]

4 minutes ago, Deep Purple said:

It's the one size fits all approach. For example, as a trailer yacht I have to have 6.2hp outboard. As a keelboat/Sport trailer yacht I don't have to have an outboard at all. Why? Because the rule makers at the NZTYA race in admittedly pretty rough areas, Wellington, Littleton, Dunedin, Southern Lakes where things can turn nasty very quick. So a trailer yacht racing on Lake Ngaroto has to carry a 6.2 engine. Now you could align the TY rules with the others and just have the sailing instructions for certain events mandate a higher level of engine but no, socialism at work.

I can fly all around the north island with no issues at all. but if I want to fly to Queenstown I have undertake a mountain flying course because that area demands special respect. Thats how it should work.

Interesting article here - 2015 - https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/news/update-ciorc-committee

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/clubs/committee/ciorc

Individually this is an awesome team and I have the greatest respect for them. Collectively I can't see any progress for grass roots yachting. The safety rules have filled pages of anomalies in this thread alone. I was up till 2am last night reading every published NZTYA meeting minutes (suspended quite some time ago) and searching as much information as I can. Quite depressing. There are no published minutes for any meeting of COIRC or YNZ and negligible reporting via "Briefings"

But $100 here, $400 here, $85 here........ It costs $19 to change the ownership of a car but $85 to change the registration of a boat.......

And 4 lots of levies for 4 clubs ......

 

The above is primarily why I got out of TY sailing after owning an E5.9, a N25 and an E7 between 1996 and 2015.

I raced and cruised TY's all round the South island and across Foveaux and the safety requirements in situations have been well tested at times by boats cruising and or competing. IMHO as past NZTYA committee member and SI VP - NZTYA as an institution failed to transform and adequately integrate newer, faster designs and appropriate safety regs. Note that the sportsboat regs at the time were/are pretty minimal. There a number of incidents where they would have been found wanting down south, particularly with the cold water. Lack of other traffci in the racing area, inadequate support resources etc.

The sports trailer yacht rule was an attempt to address the broadening performance differential and 'bring in' in the existing TY outliers, which via successive ownership and modification in many instances no longer complied with the 'TY' rules. It was also intended to cater for the newer faster designs such as the Shaws, Thompsons etc. The basic idea being 'run what you brung' and it was a race for line. The fleets could'nt and didn't support that approach with often only one or two such boats turning up to events e.g. Shaw 650 badonkadonk

Many owners/ racers also cried foul when their 'hot TY' was arguably considered no longer a TY due to hull modifications and non-compliance with for example the cabin length to OA length rule. Arguably there should have been protests at times that should have addressed these issues.  Just arms racing in a different way. 

[Adrianp 136]

5 hours ago, splat said:

T???4161 the vickers right?

Yep, High-n-Fibre

Now in Wellington.

Great little boat that we had some good fun on until I found out I could own a multihull that'd go fast upwind AND downwind, not just downwind like the sportboat. I'll bet money on Phil trading in the Shaw for a Farrier in the next few years! 😉

[Deep Purple 530]

So I decided to play nice, I've ordered $2000 worth of carbon for some pipe berths to be fitted permanently. And a brand new 6hp 4 stroke Suzuki with a high thrust prop. Overkill for a boat that weighs 600kg but it's the same engine for 4hp/5hp/6hp so why not, the next series of engines are way heavier.

Technically under the the rules I need neither but to save NZTYA from actually having to apply the rule they are charged with (the Sport Trailer Yacht Rule) I thought why not. The real reason is because I'm going to be launching at BBYC and the SSANZ series may start at Westhaven I'm going to need something that makes the trip easy.

So I inform NZTTYA and guess what. Under the rules the engine has to be 6.2 so I will not be approved with a 6hp.

Sadly this is where yachting has sunk too in NZ. Welcome to YNZ

[chariot 244]

You need to give evidence of new boat pushing against the tide in Whitianga harbour channel. Any engine that can do that is fit for purpose. 

I would suggest a large portion of boats would not pass the test.

[Deep Purple 530]

Yep, most young 88s for a start. I once ran the Waikato trailer yacht champs where I was provided a young 88 as a committe boat. Old days of windward start, windward finish. We stayed on station till the leading boat was on its way downwind for the last time and he beat us to the finish buoy.
 

I have used 2.5 Suzuki on an 1.7 tonne dragon for the last 3 years pushing in and out of all tides with no issues

if it was a keelboat or multihull I would not need an engine at all. I once sailed a night race to kawau anchored in mansion house, on and off the marina In Westhaven in sundreamer with no engine, it was away being serviced.

David barker never had an engine for years.

Obviously some feel .2 of a hp is a valid substitute for seamanship

 

[splat 57]

1 hour ago, Deep Purple said:

Yep, most young 88s for a start. I once ran the Waikato trailer yacht champs where I was provided a young 88 as a committe boat. Old days of windward start, windward finish. We stayed on station till the leading boat was on its way downwind for the last time and he beat us to the finish buoy.
 

I have used 2.5 Suzuki on an 1.7 tonne dragon for the last 3 years pushing in and out of all tides with no issues

if it was a keelboat or multihull I would not need an engine at all. I once sailed a night race to kawau anchored in mansion house, on and off the marina In Westhaven in sundreamer with no engine, it was away being serviced.

David barker never had an engine for years.

Obviously some feel .2 of a hp is a valid substitute for seamanship

 

aah Computer says no...

"You need to give evidence of new boat pushing against the tide in Whitianga harbour channel. Any engine that can do that is fit for purpose. 

I would suggest a large portion of boats would not pass the test."  Chariot

Strange the above is simply another subjective measure that can't complied with either, while it may practically demonstrate the appropriateness of the available thrust of the engine in a particular craft ( entering or leaving Bluff harbour is another good example...sometimes no amount of horsepower is enough).

Although this has been discussed elsewhere my boat has a 9.8hp outboard with HT prop in a custom well and is a registered YNZ keelboat. It meets all the YNZ requirements for speed in flatwater as per the formula but is quite poor when you might really need it  i.e a close lee shore in 40 knots as most boats will be.  Question is why was the boat on a lee shore in forty knots - poor seamanship right? was the right jib still hanked on ready to rumble for 40 knts when the mooring broke at three a.m  or the anchor dragged?

The TY rule is very prescriptive here and the formula will spit out a result that says DP needs 6.2 not 6hp. Question is where is that horsepower measured at the flywheel or at the shaft? Can this be calculated if available and is it more or less than the 'rated/advertised' hp. Can you 'hot up' the outboard to meet the rule etc and produce a cert? I know PITA. Not easy.

Especially, at this time the sport whether it be TY or sports trailer yacht or sportboat or keelboat needs to be administered to do everything possible to grow participation. Not discourage it. It is analogous to society at present where everyone/ every institution seems to be finding a reason why you can't or shouldn't do something rather than to help/ or assist participants to achieve it. In fact in many instances the 'computer says no'  is the dominant paradigm. When as a society did we move to this fear based, over-regulated, computer says no state where we are collectively inhibited, prevented from pursuing what we want to do. What happened to individual responsibility? How as a population/nation have we allowed it to occur?

Wouldn't it be odd standing up in a coroner's hearing outlining that the .2hp was a key contributing factor? Moreover who would argue that the .2hp was significant? Think about it. hydrodynamic and aero drag in most instances would render the additional .2hp utterly useless. 

DP curious , who are you dealing with at NZTYA?

 

[Deep Purple 530]

I'll pm you. I'm just heading out to the airfield to get some av-gas. Does anyone here have a dyno for outboards?

 

Failing that... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Mini-Nitrous-Oxide-Kit-Pocketbike-Gas-Bike-50-250-cc-w-5-NOS-Bottles-/331958844152?ef_id=Cj0KCQjw-_j1BRDkARIsAJcfmTEaetehI5ykHQdnKi_355PU2_tBmCmQZ_nsBRNalQNM7KdPPtMUcYIaAhTcEALw_wcB:G:s

 

[Island Time 1,294]

OK, your chance to have your say to YNZ;

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/news/feedback-sought-safety-regulations-sailing

Copy your submission here...

[Deep Purple 530]

I’ll get to work on it

[Adrianp 136]

What does Point 2 mean? They will only consider changes if the rest of the world has already agreed on it? No concept of local rules to match NZ conditions/situations?

Anyone wishing to submit feedback is asked to use the following format:

1. Proposed rule change with reference to the number.
2. Recognised  (SOLAS, World Sailing, ABS, ISO, CE, Bureau Veritas) technical substantiation for that proposed rule change.
3. Details of the organisation represented declaring any potential conflicts of interest.
4. Please email angus@yachtingnz.org.nz

[splat 57]

3 hours ago, Adrianp said:

What does Point 2 mean? They will only consider changes if the rest of the world has already agreed on it? No concept of local rules to match NZ conditions/situations?

Anyone wishing to submit feedback is asked to use the following format:

1. Proposed rule change with reference to the number.
2. Recognised  (SOLAS, World Sailing, ABS, ISO, CE, Bureau Veritas) technical substantiation for that proposed rule change.
3. Details of the organisation represented declaring any potential conflicts of interest.
4. Please email angus@yachtingnz.org.nz

Looks to me like you have to be a subject matter expert rather than joe punter to propose any rule change. Funny -  I thought the rules were suppose to serve the community using them. 

[Black Panther 1,767]

Or they are just trying to discourage people from making submissions. 

How does one politely say go away and leave me alone?

[Deep Purple 530]

Yeah, looks to me that unless you have a whole lot of letter after your name then your opinion isn't welcome

Or being less critical....... they are after technical submissions on specific equipment rather than overall practical ideas from sailors

[Island Time 1,294]

Send what you want to Angus, he's usually pretty helpful...

[Deep Purple 530]

Yes he is and I'm working with him on the trailer yacht thingy.

Helps he's a client of mine

[Cantab 341]

Why did I bother posting issues here:

New Safety Regs still refer to "Appendix M to the World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations (available from www.sailing.org)."

I still cant find appendix M,

The LPG rules  still don't match the Gas Regulations.

How did everyone else do with their issues?

[Deep Purple 530]

Yep, the new regulations are the old regulations

[Deep Purple 530]

OK having a quick look

15 (b) (e) for cat 4 all boats now have to have 50% mainsail luff reef, was recommended. There goes most of the fleet 

16.3 Toilet or fitted bucket no longer needed for Cat3/4/5

16.18  "Yacht’s name or personal identification on lifejackets, harnesses and lifebuoys" is buried in galley rules

19 (4) (3) The lead line is back for Cat4/5!!!

Trailer yacht beam now 2.95m

Otherwise no changes to the control the dinosaur NZTYA has over the safety regs.