CarpeDiem 506 Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 My interpretation of the new traffic light framework, is that racing will be able to commence In a region that is in Orange or Green Where all participants are fully vaccinated Levels Orange or Green, with vaccination certificates, appear to be the only way that events and gatherings can be held where the minimum distance requirement of 1m doesn't apply. Level Red, requires 1m distancing in all scenarios. Practically impossible and potentially unsafe, for race crew. Event organisers, (yacht clubs), will be responsible/liable for assurance. As always, yacht clubs will delegate this responsibility to skippers. Ultimately skippers will be responsible for ensuring that all crew have vaccination certificates. Interesting times ahead.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJohnB 323 Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 We are have some fun at a Radio Controlled Sailing Club with the "full Vaccination" thing and the New Zealand Bill of Rights 1990 Act. I just want to go sailing, bugger this bullshit, as I normally stand away from the main bunch of skippers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deep Purple 515 Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Yes we are looking at that with our youth training. Since distance can't be assured (coaching and assistance) it's likely to be fully vac'd only. Hoping for some guidance from YNZ which according to latest briefings will come in conjunction with SportNZ. Club keelboat racing is yet to be addressed. In that regard we are level 2 ATM and few restrictions or if there are, being ignored Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 386 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 We need some leadership from the Cindy kindy which makes it legal to ask for proof of vax and exclude people or not as per there vaccination status. Then we can organise events with some kind of structure to base them around. I know you don’t need to say “Tell him he’s dreaming” 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alibaba 80 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 The chance of transmission of virus between boats when racing is ....nil. There is no reason why races cannot go ahead if boats are crewed, as many are, with only the people in that bubble. Certainly, it would be disappointing for mixed bubble crews, but to ban all racing is not logical . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ex Machina 381 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 I can’t see a big issue ? I mean if you are vaccinated you can catch it from either vaccinated or unvaccinated persons with the same end result whatever that may be . And odds are you will catch it at some stage in the future anyhoo . as for events with big onshore crowds I guess exclusion is the best carrot for encouraging vaccination or an incentive for placard wavers to protest your event . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 I think you guys are trying to box shadows. Pfizer have released a paper in the Lancet that shows that the double shot drops to the ineffective threshold after 4 months, against delta. That is a retrospective cohort study of 3.5 million people, so not some random piece of rubbish. So buy the time the govt gets the passports sorted and you all get the rules in place, you double shots will be ineffective, and you will be posing the same risk to everyone else as the unvaccinated. I always thought the skipper was responsible for the safety of the boat and crew while racing, so I'm not sure why the skipper can't decide who to have on his boat? Why the need for more rules overreach? If you are worried about who comes to the prize giving in the club, that is a matter for who the club allows entry to, i.e. different issue. Effectiveness of mRNA BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine up to 6 months in a large integrated health system in the USA: a retrospective cohort study - The Lancet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ex Machina 381 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 I will happily box shadows within reason to see my family in Auckland and elsewhere . Boxing with the government will just drag this sh*t out longer than necessary 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex Elly 217 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 Looks like no racing this year then. Will racing start back up again in January? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Ex Machina said: I will happily box shadows within reason to see my family in Auckland and elsewhere . Boxing with the government will just drag this sh*t out longer than necessary Absolutely, you need to tick the govt's boxes to get freedom of movement around the country. But I think that discussion belongs in the covid thread. On whether or not to allow mixed vaccinated crew on racing yachts though (which this thread is about), there are two elements: 1) the skipper is responsible for the safety of the crew. Why would this current situation change that fundamental principle? 2) the level of protection of the vaccinated diminishes substantially after 4 months. There are going to be a lot of people walking around thinking they are bullet proof, when they are not. Based on that, any discrimination and rules overreach banning unvaccinated from racing is going to be marginal. Entry into the prize giving / clubhouse is a different question, and should be covered by rules for gatherings or the local club rules, not by Sailing Instructions and the like, i.e. rules that apply on the water. The obvious answer is short handed racing. Acknowledging people still like going for a sail and having a rugby team sit on the rail while the driver and one other have all the fun, I would think the traffic light rules for other team contact sports would apply. But only for fully crewed racing. Short handed racing is getting underway in Auckland un-encumbered by the current alert levels at the moment. As is cruising racing (i.e. families racing in bubbles) the beach BBQ and anchoring overnight aspects are a bit constrained at the moment. Dinghy racing is also going ahead. Maybe its time to adapt and flag having rugby team sized crews? Smaller boats, more fun and cheaper to own. Whowaddathunk? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DoT 31 Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 5 hours ago, Fish said: I think you guys are trying to box shadows. Pfizer have released a paper in the Lancet that shows that the double shot drops to the ineffective threshold after 4 months, against delta. That is a retrospective cohort study of 3.5 million people, so not some random piece of rubbish. This is a pretty gross misrepresentation of the study. To quote to key passages of the summary: "Vaccine effectiveness against hospital admissions for infections with the delta variant for all ages was high overall (93% [95% CI 84–96]) up to 6 months." "Among sequenced infections, vaccine effectiveness against infections of the delta variant was high during the first month after full vaccination (93% [95% CI 85–97]) but declined to 53% [39–65] after 4 months." So vaccination still halves transmission at 4 months - which is far more than the flu vaccine achieves - and reduces serious outcomes for the individual by more than 90% at 6 months. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, DoT said: This is a pretty gross misrepresentation of the study. To quote to key passages of the summary: "Vaccine effectiveness against hospital admissions for infections with the delta variant for all ages was high overall (93% [95% CI 84–96]) up to 6 months." "Among sequenced infections, vaccine effectiveness against infections of the delta variant was high during the first month after full vaccination (93% [95% CI 85–97]) but declined to 53% [39–65] after 4 months." So vaccination still halves transmission at 4 months - which is far more than the flu vaccine achieves - and reduces serious outcomes for the individual by more than 90% at 6 months. No. The recognised level for vaccines to be effective is 50%. As the effectiveness drops, the rate of spread increases exponentially. The 50% number is well recognised in medical technical fields as the limit for vaccine effectiveness. You will also note, that since this paper came out on the 16th Oct, our govt has suddenly developed an interest in booster shots. That was not a coincidence. PS, did you know you only had 50% protection after 4 months? The vast majority of people think they are bombproof and run around going to BBQ's, parties, and heaven forbid, yacht racing, thinking they are fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DoT 31 Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 I don't agree. Lots of vaccines have effectiveness around 50%. The flu vaccine for example: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm Or the recently approved malaria vaccine: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02755-5 The covid vaccine remains 93% effective against serious illness after 6 months. Stopping the spread of covid requires more than just vaccines. Hence the continuing restrictions and recommendations for mask wearing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 506 Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 9 hours ago, alibaba said: There is no reason why races cannot go ahead if boats are crewed, as many are, with only the people in that bubble. Certainly, it would be disappointing for mixed bubble crews, but to ban all racing is not logical . Yes you are quite right. I am not aware that "many" race boats are crewed by single bubbles - this would be quite the opposite of my experience. If the crew is from the same bubble, then at level RED, based on current information available, a race boat where all crew come from the same household would be able to race. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brien 22 Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 So long as the one behind got no closer to the one in front than 2 metres LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 116 Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 5 hours ago, DoT said: I don't agree. Lots of vaccines have effectiveness around 50%. The flu vaccine for example: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm Or the recently approved malaria vaccine: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02755-5 The covid vaccine remains 93% effective against serious illness after 6 months. Stopping the spread of covid requires more than just vaccines. Hence the continuing restrictions and recommendations for mask wearing. Both of you are right. The study is focused on Infections. Ie returning a positive test. It’s been clear from the beginning that vaccine won’t prevent picking up the virus. It is aimed at improving the immune response to prevent hospitalization. the study concludes this most clearly under the section headed “Discussion” : “Effectiveness against hospital admissions in all age groups did not wane over the duration of the study. These findings are consistent with preliminary reports from the Israel Ministry of Health and US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showing reductions in effectiveness of BNT162b2 against infections 5 months or longer after being fully vaccinated, but consistently high estimates against COVID-19-related hospital admissions and severe disease up until July, 2021.” 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 So the conclusion there is that relying on the vaccine to prevent infection between racing crew has no technical basis. Therefore, all this twaddlebollocks about segregating our society and our yacht clubs based on vaccine status is a nonsense. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
El Toro 100 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 So at what stage do we let it spread, lock up the old and overweight people, accept it as the flu, and move on? I am forever frustrated that we are still going for elimination when the boat sailed the minute it jumped China and landed in Italy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,670 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 What makes you think we are still going for elimination? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 281 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 16 hours ago, Veladare said: So at what stage do we let it spread, lock up the old and overweight people, accept it as the flu, and move on? I am forever frustrated that we are still going for elimination when the boat sailed the minute it jumped China and landed in Italy All current health measures are just to slow the inevitable spread, & try to stop the overloading and collapse of the health system. If you have any surgery or similar booked in Dec I'd be making other plans! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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