Black Panther 1,670 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 In your price range just skip insurance. I've never paid for a survey, on my 4th big boat now. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vin 7 Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Black Panther said: In your price range just skip insurance. I've never paid for a survey, on my 4th big boat now. Is insurance required for using Marina services (for example: fuel dock). What about swing moorings? I imagine it'd just be 3rd party required in case I accidentally ding someone's gin palace? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Someone said "idyllic bays aren’t so good in the winter when it’s gusting 30knts". I'd have to disagree. There's nothing sweeter than sheltering in a nice bay out of the wind. You breathe a big sigh of relief nudging up into the calm. As for insurance, I'd agree with David, by the time you pay big bucks year after year you could buy another boat (which stands for Bring Out Another Thousand). Fuel berths on many marinas are public infrastructure operated under licence to the landowner (Auckland Council around the Gulf) and you don't need insurance as far as I know. I'll send you a DM re my boat which I am very torn about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Psyche 707 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 One of the cheap liveaboard options is ferrocement. The boats are typically very well insulated, quiet and have a settled motion due to the weight. Ideal if you intend live up an estuarine river somewhere and not do too much travelling. Not as many around these days. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Vin said: Is insurance required for using Marina services (for example: fuel dock). What about swing moorings? I imagine it'd just be 3rd party required in case I accidentally ding someone's gin palace? You will need insurance at fairly much any place to haul out and re-do the antifoul. Black Panther has copper coat which is a 10 yr antifoul. Keep that in mind, and suss how you will maintain the boat (antifoul) as problems will escalate quickly if you let it get away. The Council compliance team may issue a requirement to haul out (if they fined fanworm) with penalties if you don't. You can't haul out without insurance (anywhere that I know of), and often you can't get insurance if you are un-insured, or you need an out of water survey to get insurance, which you need to haul out for, which you can't if you don't have insurance... A lot of low value boats just have 3rd party insurance. If your boat sinks and spreads sh*t all over one of our beaches or estuaries, the Harbour Master will bill you for the clean up. A minimum of $15k if your boat can be recovered in one piece, but most likely $30-$50k. The cleanup cost has no relationship with the value of the vessel. It is our bays and estuaries that have the value. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 506 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 11 minutes ago, Fish said: A lot of low value boats just have 3rd party insurance. Where from? A friend of mine bought a 727 2 years ago and could not find anyone to provide just 3rd party insurance. Three different brokers said 3rd party only is not available. This is one of the biggest problems facing boat owners as insurers pull out and clamp down, not only can they not get full insurance, they can't even get 3rd party to be able to remain in the marina. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,670 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 In Vin situation i would be avoiding marinas full stop. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said: Where from? A friend of mine bought a 727 2 years ago and could not find anyone to provide just 3rd party insurance. Three different brokers said 3rd party is not available. This is one of the biggest problems facing boat owners as insurers pull out, not only can they not get full insurance, they can't even get 3rd party to be able to remain in the marina. I may be wrong that it is 3rd party only, but boats worth $5k-$30k the premiums aren't going to change noticeably for full insurance, as the liability based on market value is next to insignificant. I spoke to a guy who bought a 727 type boat about 6 months ago and had no issues getting insurance for it. We're with Mariner. Have a 40 yr old home built kiwi boat, market value maybe $100k (we've had it 20 yrs so no real idea what the market value is). Full insurance on that is about $900 / yr. No survey, nothing at all. PS, in your mates situation, the brokers don't deal with Mariner, they only deal with Vero and one of the other big name outfits. Via a broker we were looking at in excess of $2.5k - $3k plus surveys, rig survey. One even wanted our pile mooring surveyed (its a big f**king pole!). Google and a telephone work far better than brokers, so can't understand why you mate couldn't get insurance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 506 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Fish said: I may be wrong that it is 3rd party only, but boats worth $5k-$30k the premiums aren't going to change noticeably for full insurance, as the liability based on market value is next to insignificant. I spoke to a guy who bought a 727 type boat about 6 months ago and had no issues getting insurance for it. We're with Mariner. Have a 40 yr old home built kiwi boat, market value maybe $100k (we've had it 20 yrs so no real idea what the market value is). Full insurance on that is about $900 / yr. No survey, nothing at all. PS, in your mates situation, the brokers don't deal with Mariner, they only deal with Vero and one of the other big name outfits. Via a broker we were looking at in excess of $2.5k - $3k plus surveys, rig survey. One even wanted our pile mooring surveyed (its a big f**king pole!). Google and a telephone work far better than brokers, so can't understand why you mate couldn't get insurance. Just to be clear he tried everything/everyone to get 3rd party only, brokers, insurers etc. Couldn't make it happen no one was interested. So genuinely interested in anyone that has found 3rd party only to be available in NZ in the last 2 years. Yes he ended up getting full insurance as it was the only way to get the 3rd party he needed for the poles at Westhaven. The issue really is for growing community of people like the one who started this thread: 1) they can't buy full insurance, no one will cover them - OK fair enough no one wants that risk; BUT 2) they can't even buy 3rd party only, so now they are cut out of marinas and other services that require such I don't understand why insurers won't sell third party only, eg in your case you are paying $900 for full insurance including 3rd party, why can't they just charge $900 for 3rd party on it's own? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 So if there is no cost difference between 3rd party and full, why not just get full insurance? that is available. Is the problem survey's etc? I expect they apply regardless of the level of insurance. The bulk of the risk is in cost of salvage. It may be that someone that only wants 3rd party are seen to not care about their boat (in the eyes of the insurance co) and that in itself is enough to put the risk up. I can see a behavioral thing there. Checking the boat regularly, fixing little issues, keeping up regular maintenance is what in reality reduces insurance risk. Only wanting 3rd party may be a proxy for someone that just leaves their boat on a swing mooring for years and lets it deteriate to a shitter. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 506 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Fish said: So if there is no cost difference between 3rd party and full, why not just get full insurance? that is available. Sorry I am clearly not making myself clear.... 😕 Owner of boat who started this thread: cannot get full insurance because insurers refuse to insurer them based on boats risk profile cannot get 3rd party because it not available as a stand-alone product will get kicked out of the marina and denied other services because they cannot get 3rd party I personally cannot understand why if, you and I can buy FULL INSURANCE for $1000/year, why can't he buy just 3rd PARTY for $1000/yr - it makes no sense to me... EDIT: Actually I have confused threads - thought this was the Trimaran can't get insurance thread Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 22 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said: I personally cannot understand why if, you and I can buy FULL INSURANCE for $1000/year, why can't he buy just 3rd PARTY for $1000/yr - it makes no sense to me... Because, on a low value boat, there is no difference in liability to the insurance company. But there is likely an increased risk. 3rd party normally requires a minimum of $5mil cover (or there abouts?) if a low value boat is worth somewhere between $10k - $30k, the liability doesn't change for the insurance co and their underwriters (fractions of a percent). A $2mil Riv or Leopard cat or something, the liability increases by 40%. But, whoever owns a $2mil boat is going to make sure it is well looked after. Possibly professional detailing and servicing. Possibly remotely monitored bilge and intruder alarms etc There is no difference in the 3rd party liability for a $10k boat and a $2mil boat. But there is potentially greater risk of a claim for 3rd party on the $10k boat, if it is not regularly maintained, i.e. left to rot on a swing mooring. The fundamental problem isn't 3rd party or full insurance, but point 1) above, why can't the OP get full insurance? If the risk is too great, it doesn't matter if its 3rd party or full, the liability is the same. If you are being told the risk is too high, I would look at how to reduce that risk, even if you want to 'self ensure'... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 506 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, Fish said: If the risk is too great, it doesn't matter if its 3rd party or full, the liability is the same. If you are being told the risk is too high I don't understand how liability can be the same. How is a trimaran sitting in a marina more likely to cause damage to the marina than a boat that has full insurance? If that was the case it would apply to cars as well, there are plenty of collectible/specialist/vintage cars that cannot be insured, but which can get 3rd party only. 26 minutes ago, Fish said: I would look at how to reduce that risk, even if you want to 'self ensure'... Self insurance isn't an option when marinas require proof of public liability insurance in their terms and conditions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 34 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said: I don't understand how liability can be the same. How is a trimaran sitting in a marina more likely to cause damage to the marina than a boat that has full insurance? If that was the case it would apply to cars as well, there are plenty of collectible/specialist/vintage cars that cannot be insured, but which can get 3rd party only. Self insurance isn't an option when marinas require proof of public liability insurance in their terms and conditions. The liability is if the boat sinks. Especially in the marina entrance, blocking the whole of the marina etc. Or if it catches fire. Fires in marinas are super cool... Or if it sinks in some pristine environmental spot and requires all sorts of spill response and detritus recovery. Councils love to recover their costs for all of these things. Now, with regards to risk. A boat is more likely to sink or catch fire if it is not regularly checked or maintained. Corroded sea cock. rusting hose clips. corroding wiring. bilge water flooding a battery (may not catch fire but salt water in a FLA battery would still be fun to watch). There is a perception (potentially) that those with 3rd party only people are less likely to carry out regular maintenance on their boat. Hence increasing the risk. More so if the boat is already old, and all the seacocks and hose clips are of dubious age and condition. Hence the common requirement for surveys. With the classic car thing, classic / old cars tend to be worth more. And they are near impossible to agree a value on. But the 3rd party liability is about the same as any other car. Less if they are only driven on 2 Sunday's a year. Old boats tend to be worth less. Old boats are just a liability. And insurance is the market of selling your liability... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 506 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Guest said: Third party? https://www.marine-insurance.co.nz/ Interestingly they list that 3rd party only is available for ferro boats only. I guess GRP and timber boats are at higher risk of sinking from low maintenance than ferro...? It still makes no sense to me.. guess that's why I am not in the insurance industry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 671 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Couldnt get 3rd party for a trailer boat,but at AMI full cover rate,cheap as. Insurance is getting harder due to broken moorings ,vessels causing damage and not claimable from those that have broken free.I asked if they claim against the owner whose vessel took mine out .Nah deemed a act of god.Through no fault of mine cannot get insurance for a swing mooring in Panmure but would insure if we went on piles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,670 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Back to the OP. Id be tempted to look at the matangi. If you and her like it get a person i know who is a boatbuilder and has a matangi to check it out. Not a survey but give him something for his time. Then if all goes well buy it move aboard. Avoid marinas. Only get insurance if forced to , but you can get by without it. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,670 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 7 hours ago, Vin said: Is insurance required for using Marina services (for example: fuel dock). What about swing moorings? I imagine it'd just be 3rd party required in case I accidentally ding someone's gin palace? Not necessary for fuel docks or moorings. In your size range skip fuel docks,and get 2 jerry jugs. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
khayyam 83 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Fresh water via jerry can too? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tamaterau 0 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Just looked at the add for the Matangi looks ideal for what you want but an alloy top on a steel hull sounds like a recipe for issues… effectively you could be sailing a battery right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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