BMW Regatta suprise

[johnMi 2]

BooBoo

I think there are more who feel the same way, but won't say.

I am a poor loser if the game plan is changed on me, and I stand by what I think. I may be wrong, but it sure looks like it to me. Look at the facts

1. I'm up in the series leading by 12 points (I think).

2. Handicap changed by nearly 10%

3. I'm out the back door, lasts and second to lasts

4. Got 4th cos even if they had doubled my handicap I could just about have gotten

4th by the results from day one.

Tell me BooBoo what facts are incorrect.

 

If Greg Roake does the handicaps then he's at fault.. You don't just hike up the handicap nearly 10%. Or you don't get the initial handicap wrong by 10%. He may have done the 1st handicap, but did he alter it after the 1st day?

 

JohnK

I've protested an unfair handicap before, that was dealt with, with a hearing, protest committee etc appointed by YNZ (I think) so don't think it can't happen.

 

You challenge me to prove you can't win if you are not a RNZYS member. I have just proved to you it has happened, I'm sure there were non RNZYS members who won on handicap in other Divs of the BMW, (or did they?) Not taking up the challenge cos it's just not that important to me. I see it's really upset you so I challenge you to prove to me that you CAN win if you're not an RNZYS member.

 

All those things Markm's handicap doesn't take into account is all part of racing. Are you saying that if you run aground, or don't allow for the tide you should not count that race in the history. Most handicapping in NZ is done on the skipper's performance and RNZYS certainly does. Otherwise all Y88s would have the same handicap, as would all the 1020s.

 

And to conclude with, John, you're arguments are a bit poor, and you know it too, cos you just can't help yourself by hitting below 'the belt'

Quote "I have spent a lot of time in the 8.5 fleet waiting for you to finish and watching your antics on the track".

Be a man John and argue the issue.

 

Cameron

Once again Cameron, why do I have to prove anything?

Why should I join RNZYS (They wouldn't want me anyway)

That is one thing that RNZYS is doing well, the youth programme and yes any donation to them would be a good investment into NZ yachting, but to do it to win a handicap place, no, not worth it.

 

It seems to me that all you guys are feeling a bit precious about your club, and that's not all bad, but please forgive me if I have a bad impression of your club. Prove me wrong by highlighting other instances, and explain to me why a handicap should be hiked up so far half way through a regatta.

[B00B00 310]

BooBoo

I think there are more who feel the same way, but won't say.

I am a poor loser if the game plan is changed on me, and I stand by what I think. I may be wrong, but it sure looks like it to me. Look at the facts

1. I'm up in the series leading by 12 points (I think).

2. Handicap changed by nearly 10%

3. I'm out the back door, lasts and second to lasts

4. Got 4th cos even if they had doubled my handicap I could just about have gotten

4th by the results from day one.

Tell me BooBoo what facts are incorrect.

 

If Greg Roake does the handicaps then he's at fault.. You don't just hike up the handicap nearly 10%. Or you don't get the initial handicap wrong by 10%. He may have done the 1st handicap, but did he alter it after the 1st day?

 

JohnK

I've protested an unfair handicap before, that was dealt with, with a hearing, protest committee etc appointed by YNZ (I think) so don't think it can't happen.

 

You challenge me to prove you can't win if you are not a RNZYS member. I have just proved to you it has happened, I'm sure there were non RNZYS members who won on handicap in other Divs of the BMW, (or did they?) Not taking up the challenge cos it's just not that important to me. I see it's really upset you so I challenge you to prove to me that you CAN win if you're not an RNZYS member.

 

All those things Markm's handicap doesn't take into account is all part of racing. Are you saying that if you run aground, or don't allow for the tide you should not count that race in the history. Most handicapping in NZ is done on the skipper's performance and RNZYS certainly does. Otherwise all Y88s would have the same handicap, as would all the 1020s.

 

And to conclude with, John, you're arguments are a bit poor, and you know it too, cos you just can't help yourself by hitting below 'the belt'

Quote "I have spent a lot of time in the 8.5 fleet waiting for you to finish and watching your antics on the track".

Be a man John and argue the issue.

 

Cameron

Once again Cameron, why do I have to prove anything?

Why should I join RNZYS (They wouldn't want me anyway)

That is one thing that RNZYS is doing well, the youth programme and yes any donation to them would be a good investment into NZ yachting, but to do it to win a handicap place, no, not worth it.

 

It seems to me that all you guys are feeling a bit precious about your club, and that's not all bad, but please forgive me if I have a bad impression of your club. Prove me wrong by highlighting other instances, and explain to me why a handicap should be hiked up so far half way through a regatta.

 

John mi, my point was that the RNZYS has nothing to do with any NZMYC handicaps, they are supplied to them by the NZMYC.

Also on another note, the BMW regatta is run by 2 clubs BBYC and RNZYS. Not just the RNZYS.

Do you feel that in order to win you need to be a member of both or do you just have a problem with the RNZYS?

 

Look mate I was out there racing in the same fleet you were. You did have a good regatta, I'm not arguing that, did you deserve to win? That I don't know- the top end of the fleet is pretty sharp. But I just think your comments about favortisim on handicaps for RNZYS members is out of line and just plain rude.

[johnk 0]

josh

nice reply puts it fairly

 

John mi

you are right, you area poor loser,( you said it )

remember their were 12 others in the 8.5's that also didnt win ,you are not the only one who is agreived about that but your the only one slagging off the handicapper/rnzys in what is a damm good regatta

 

as for your handicap protest ah no dont believe you, you wouldnt have a leg to stand on

 

quite frankly your hcp was too low to start with partly because of the way you sailed the boat prior to that ( badly), and frankly i dont think you should win until you improve a bit more

who says on your performance you should have won?, you do, fair enough thats a view you are entitled to but if you put it out there as publicly as you have and throw some mud around you have got to expect some challenge

 

for the record i think the boat I was on did enough to win as well ( as i susepct did 11 others

remeber one thing in our division the boat that won was also sailed very well

 

to answer your question re winners and their clubs at a quick glance division A and B PHRF were won by non RNZYS members, so that is your theory disproved and i took the time to fiond out not duck your challenge

 

re hitting below the belt , dude the same applies to you

you have a crack at the rnzys ( and its an outrageous statement as booboo points out that you made) and then you slam the hard working handicapper

if you hit low expect to get hit low

 

you may have a bad view of the rnzys as a club, perhaps you are not amongst their favourites either

 

look dude you were most improved no doubt, but sadly theres no prize for that

 

were you the best really i dont think so

 

and yeah i am proud of my club(s) and when i see an unsubstaniated farcical claim made i will jump in, and put the other side and my loyalty is only strenghtened when i have seen some of your sailing antics and then add you dont need to practice

 

i am just not as polite as booboo

[johnMi 2]

Well BooBoo, trouble is that's how I feel, and I don't really care if I'm rude.

Out of line, maybe, but then, if my suggestion is true, is that out of line?

Did Greg change the handicap after day 1? I think not, but I could be wrong.Tell me I'm wrong.

Tell me I'm wrong that a RNZYS member won.

Tell me I am wrong that my handicap went up so high after the first day.

 

I have nothing against you BooBoo, and have always enjoyed racing against you, as I have with most other Multi racers, but don't agree with you on this. All I need is an explanation on why my handicap went through the roof, and if it makes sense, my lack of respect for RNZYS will change.

 

It's not my problem, it's the RNZYS's problem.

 

JohnK

Thanks, at least A and B were not slighted by this allegation. How many divisions again?

 

As far as the handicap protest, WYS 100 miler, some 10 yrs ago against Eraser, an Elliott 7.8 presided over by John Faire (owner of Terminator). Please get your facts right, John, before calling me a liar, it makes you look stupid.

 

Once again, a lot of defence for RNZYS, but apart from putting me right about A and B divisions still not giving me hard facts

[johnk 0]

Ha ha good post like your style

But it has a weakness you assume you are right but your claim is unsubstantiated in the sense that even if they did belong to the rnzys the could have sailed the best

 

Now a very clear fact. You historically have not sailed your boat well full stop.you do some incredibly stupid things and as a result your hcp was too low

 

Then in bmw for some reason you found major improvement ( you admit it wasn't from practicing), and the program said here's a boat the performing way different from how it nomally does and you got adjusted up you then finished mid fleet and that means little or no change

 

Johnmi you weren't the only on to get their tcf adjusted like this by the system some people went up like you others would have gone down if they had a last , last last

I ask this sensibly do you understand how the tcf works,I suspect from your post you dont

[Cameron 77]

Cameron

Once again Cameron, why do I have to prove anything?

Why should I join RNZYS (They wouldn't want me anyway)

That is one thing that RNZYS is doing well, the youth programme and yes any donation to them would be a good investment into NZ yachting, but to do it to win a handicap place, no, not worth it.

 

It seems to me that all you guys are feeling a bit precious about your club, and that's not all bad, but please forgive me if I have a bad impression of your club. Prove me wrong by highlighting other instances, and explain to me why a handicap should be hiked up so far half way through a regatta.

 

Why do you have to prove anything ?

 

Quite simply because you made the accusations in such a public way and it appears you haven't done any research or quietly asked the appropriate people the question first and given them a chance to answer your questions before dragging the clubs name through the mud ?

 

Are members being precious ? I don't think so. What would your reaction be if I started stating on public forums that you were a pedaphile or fraudster without any proof...you'd have me in court for defamation. Maybe an extreme example but you get the idea !

 

Anyway now some facts... General Handicap

 

A Div was won by Pretty Boy Floyd with Bullrush second..... Bucks boats

B Div was won by River Rebel... Bucks boat

D Div was won by Hysteria... (not certain but think Richmond ?)

P Div was won by Hard Labour... oh a finally a RNZYS boat has won a div !

M div was won by Charlston... you would know multis better than I

N div was won by Ocean Pacific... think a RNZYS skipper

H div was won by Abracadabra...RNZYS boat

 

So case is proven... you don't need to be a member.

 

Next issue is handicaps...

 

I've had issues with them for a long time (and that's any club). Most people grumble about them other than the winner.

 

I personally think clubs should issue a written list of their objectives for handicapping. These objectives maybe different in various events. Possible objectives are:

Most improved boat wins

Most consistant boat wins

Best sailed boat wins (i.e extracts the most potential from the design)

Everybody gets a shot at winning (I use the term Club Lottery!)

Or left to the computer and a formula is stated that works it out.

 

If everyone knows the handicapping objectives they might not be happy but can at least understand why.

 

Currently I believe the computer system generates the numbers for the handicaps which are reviewed and manually adjusted before racing starts. During the regatta it adjusts a rolling average of the previous 3-4 races and this is why after a bad race your handicap can still go up (the 5th previous race has now been dropped out of the average and that could have been worse than the race just completed... but noone thinks that far back and just state "it's bullshit, my handicaps gone up after I had a shocker!") Anyway though out the regatta the computer suggestions are also manually adjusted if deemed necessary.

 

Personally I believe the best sailed boat should win on handicap (and they tend to be the most consistantly sailed too).... but any performance based system eventually works against this result. Therefore, despite their flaws I prefer a rating system such as IRC, ORC, IMS where your handicap doesn't change during a regatta.

[johnMi 2]

Cameron

I did actually mention this when a questionnare went out, but no reaction, so RNZYS has themselves to blame. I was hoping that someone would contact me so I could grumble quietly, but it didn't happen.

I have no issue with the handicap being altered, but nearly 10%?

 

You say it's the same as calling someone a fraudster or peadaphyle without proof. I agree, but I believe I have proof, and the only way to prove this to be incorrect in the western society is to have a hearing, or court case.

But every court case has started with an accusation.

[Guest]

Just to give a frame of reference: Weiti proved over many years and many races that the difference between spinnakers and non spinnakers around an olympic triangle is very close to 3%.

[johnMi 2]

Maybe I should apologise to all 3 of you guys, both you Cameron and BooBoo are very good sailors, proven your calibre with your successes over the years, and even you JohnK (if you are on DD?) sail that boat really well.I cannot throw dirt back, I have too much respect for DD to do so.

 

My beef is not with the members, just with the decision to increase my handicap by such a ridiculous amount. I put 2 and 2 together and came up with a reason. Now I may be wrong, and if I can be proven wrong I would happily apologise.

[B00B00 310]

John,

Did you actually do any investigation into who was responsable before posting your claims.

As I understand it and which you have failed to grasp is that the handicaps were all set by the NZMYC and have nothing to do with the rnzys. Just like every other division which are all using phrf.

I doubt the rnzys had even looked at the handicaps for our division.

 

You say you mentioned it in the survey and had no responce, did you think that there might have been a chance your comments were actually passed onto the right person in the nzmyc and it was them who failed to respond?

 

Its a big call to make based on just a 'feeling'

[johnMi 2]

No BooBoo I didn't research it, and I know Greg set the handicaps. My beef is not with the handicap that was originally set. Was Greg involved in altering it after the 1st day?

 

Surely, if I highlight something in a questionnare, it is not my responsibility to then follow it through the corridors of RNZYS to make sure it's acted upon.

 

And I know it's a big call with my accusation. But 10% is a huge increase in handicap. As crew ogre stated, carrying a kite or not alters it by only 3%.

[Cameron 77]

Booboo...

 

Each division also had a general handicap as well as PHRF and IRC for the mono's. The earlier data I posted on division winners was based on the general handicap results

 

JohnK...

 

Your the accountant ! you should have been able to whip up the numbers (as I've done below) to prove your statements !

 

johnMi...

 

Had a quick look at the results...

 

you state

so that night the handicap goes up nearly 10%. The next day results in 2 lasts and 1 2nd to last.

 

In fact overnight your handicap went up 2.3%... It DID go up about 7.3% from the initial handicap

 

For races 3 and 4 your handicap had already jumped to 0.65 and yet you still scored two 2nd's... to my mind that's justification for a further increase.

 

From race 5 onwards (apart from Race 9) your regatta went downhill...

 

So I've done a few calcs....

 

Lets assume your handicap didn't change over night and stayed on .65 (and you have already proven you can sail to it by races 3 and 4...) What difference would it make to the results ???

 

Actually ZILCH ! You would have scored 1 point less but the Dirty Deeds would get you on countback so you would still be 4th overall. (evidence of calcs attached)

 

The evidence would suggest you didn't sail quite as well during the second half of the regatta. I'd also suggest the initial handicap was well out but got corrected to about the right number after 2 races.

 

Cameron

p.s I prefer to deal with facts and figures over feelings and emotions... but if you feel hard done by then you should definately investigate and see if the numbers back you up.

[B00B00 310]

No BooBoo I didn't research it, and I know Greg set the handicaps. My beef is not with the handicap that was originally set. Was Greg involved in altering it after the 1st day?

 

Surely, if I highlight something in a questionnare, it is not my responsibility to then follow it through the corridors of RNZYS to make sure it's acted upon.

 

And I know it's a big call with my accusation. But 10% is a huge increase in handicap. As crew ogre stated, carrying a kite or not alters it by only 3%.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me John.

[Marshy 30]

No BooBoo I didn't research it, and I know Greg set the handicaps. My beef is not with the handicap that was originally set. Was Greg involved in altering it after the 1st day?

 

Surely, if I highlight something in a questionnare, it is not my responsibility to then follow it through the corridors of RNZYS to make sure it's acted upon.

 

And I know it's a big call with my accusation. But 10% is a huge increase in handicap. As crew ogre stated, carrying a kite or not alters it by only 3%.

 

Jeepers team thats a big few pages of ranting over handicaps...

 

Why dont you get onboard with the NZMYC and help organise it better this year rather than slagging off all involved John? (And yes im in a position to say that having organised a few regatta's and being involved with this one with BBYC).

 

Its very easy to look back at the crystal ball and say something was wrong so fix it. But remember these regatta's are grass roots sailing and run by Volunteers and its a fun event that in my opinion was run superbly last year and handicaps change. Your boat wasn't sailed very well leading up to the regatta and the handicap was based on longer harbor courses we had sailed in the midweek sailing. The format changed to be shorted windward leewards where you were able to mix it up a bit. More handicaps than just yours changed mate.

 

Maybe this year enjoy the regatta for its merits rather than knocking it for its problems, Otherwise leave the boat on the trailer and help running it better instead?

[Kaihe Atamai 2]

Ok Guys. This was raised at the BBYC Keeler meeting and we are doing everything we can to Re-Instate a "D" division. To be able to do this we need to drum up support from 6 or more boats that would enter.

 

So far we have:

Candella

Humdinger

Faster Coyote

Revolution blues?

 

Can we tempt the likes of Smokey Joe? Any more Davo 28's or Marauders etc that want to join too?

 

Revolution Blues in IN... sending in the rego tomorrow. For ease of entry to the rest:

 

http://www.bmwaucklandregatta.co.nz/sit ... 20form.pdf

 

So 5 more!

 

I believe that Crocodile might be in...

 

And please take the whingefest about handicaps elsewhere.

[Young Entertainer 59]

Coyote will be in shortly just waiting for a new sail so I can reapply for the phrf certificate

[B00B00 310]

Sounds like there are a few SR26s planning on racing too. I imagine they would be in the same divion as you guys.

[johnk 0]

Johnmi

Cheers dude

I do sail on deeds( but also on wired , vidafone and my etchell and my MRX in the national Matchracing and I while a go I owned Farr 40

Dude I can assure you no of fence taken and hey hold your views and challenge the powers that be BUT do it properly

[johnMi 2]

Cameron

Still comes back to the fact that it went up by nearly 10% during the regatta.

 

And if we're getting into figures,

1. WTF if I get last in race 7 I get hammered again just to put the knife in. They could relax by the last race cos they were sure I wouldn't make the podium. What does RNZYS do with their handicapping throw darts at the board?

2. Look at the 3 previous RNZYS races, apart from the middle race (average) I had been getting really good results. So don't give me the sh*t that I was doing better than the norm. I have raced in excess of 40 races with RNZYS so they had history even if they are too conceited to get the full history from Racetrack.

3. I agree that my handicap should go up after the 1st couple races but 5%? 5% is still a hell of a jump' Tell me, the boat that beat me in race 1, did his handicap go up 5%, cos he showed he could sail to that too?

4. The boat that won, what increase in handicap did he carry

 

I could go on, Do you see figures can be manipulated to suit.

 

You may be right Cameron and most probably if it had started at .63 and finished on .65 I would not be highlighting this, but from this side of the fence it sure looks like fingers fiddling.

 

I think RNZYS should do some serious soul-searching in their handicapping, because they are potentially doing huge damage to their sponsor BMW. And for heaven sake, if you send out a questionnare, do something with the findings.

[johnk 0]

Dude

Calm down

Stop blaming the rnzys and painting them as the doer of all evil

When you go off line this Cam Booboo and I will step up and have a POT shot at you the way you have at them