YNZ Race Regulations Cat1-Cat5; Anomalies and concerns

[DrWatson 265]

Thought I'd start this for people to add to, then later we have all our gripes and concerns in one place so when the next revision is due...

 

 

19.04 NAVIGATION SYSTEMS

 

(d) Echo (Depth) Sounder

 

Required for all categories. Seriously? For a Cat 5 race you have to have an echo sounder? Seems a little over the top... how many mullet boats have a depth sounder? Given there're plenty of small boats that don't have wiring of any sort,... How many are going to have an echo sounder? What happened to having a lead line? 

 

 

20.0 ENGINEERING SYSTEM

 

20.1 Installation of a propulsion engine ... 

 

Read carefully this clause does not exclude the use of an outboard for Cat 3 or higher. And this seems to be backed up by Reg 20.13 on Outboards, which covers all categories (1 through 5).

 

However, Reg 20.13 also states 

 

"The outboard motor(s) must not be located near accommodation"

 

for all categories.

How is "near" defined? Because unless you have the outboard in a well, on a larger boat it's unlikely to meet the next part of the rule about being operated without leaning over the railing, and if you have it in a well, it's going to be near the accommodation if you have quarter berths (who doesn't?). And in a smaller boat, an outboard on the transom is also going to be "near" accommodation, simply because on a small yacht friggin EVERYTHING is near the accommodations! How is one supposed to use this rule?

 

 

23.0 CLASSIC YACHTS

 

Not really a gripe but more an anomaly given that NZ's fleet is not getting any younger, it appears that if you have a one-off (or two off) boat more than 50y old, you can't sail it offshore according to the Protected Objects Act 2006. So I guess all of those folk with boats from before '69 are screwed if they wanted to sail offshore...

 

[KM... 954]

Who said a 'Echo sounder' has to be electronic? A lead line does the exact same thing.

I'd say as YNZ do expect electronic failures, as shown by them saying you have to have a back up of the back up of your GPS, they will be fine with a lead line instead.

 

Yes it is weird a echo sounder is Cat 5 but nothing else. That makes no sense.

 

Outboards are fine for all Categories BUT outboards can not be outboard for Cats 1 and 2 I'm told. The thing with these is they do not want people outside of the lifelines trying to fit, fix or start outboards, so if the OB is inside the lifelines they are fine, which is handy seeing more boats are swinging that way over built in power plants.

 

You have to remember the Regs are written by old guys whose boating hey days were a wee while ago so they will push older gear/techniques over newer if they have any doubt. That's probably quite wise but it does have a way of playing with the newer gear, uses of it and emerging 'best practice'.

 

That 23 - weird, bizarre and unknown by everyone I've spoken to this morning. Even more weirder when the NZ Government has given old classic classics to other countries.

[Steve Pope 138]

Try buying an echo sounder today, they all seem to be called "fishfinders" and come with gps as well, but they don't display the depths well, small size numbers.  Full screen display not available as far as I can see..

[splat 50]

Try buying an echo sounder today, they all seem to be called "fishfinders" and come with gps as well, but they don't display the depths well, small size numbers.  Full screen display not available as far as I can see..

ahhh most chartplotter/ fishfinder combos (MFDS) are readily customised to suit user preferences including very large digits for depth, COG, Temp, time DTD, DTW, cross track error etc. Trouble in NZ is that the trailer boat market dominates ( 4-8 metre fishers) and there is little specialised sailing orientated stuff other than B&G IMHO. If you want depth then you could simply get Garmin, Simrad/B&G or advansea or similar instrument package with large number/illluminated displays. There is no reason to suffer with shitty hard to read displays. Most new units will link via wifi to a suitable tablet or phone if vision is a problem.

[ex Elly 68]

Lead lines got removed from the rules about 8 years ago. I was surprised there wasn't any outcry at the time.

[KM... 954]

I do think the requirement for a echo sounder, how quaint they use terminology from the 1940's, for Cat 5 is a tad stupid. That means a Cat 5 boat has to install an electrical system to run the bloody thing.

[YNZ 14]

If this thread can remain constructive and sensible, then it can provide some valuable feedback from this community, which we can feed into the review of the regulations. 

[Steve Pope 138]

If this thread can remain constructive and sensible, then it can provide some valuable feedback from this community, which we can feed into the review of the regulations. 

Thanks YNZ, that is a positive move. Perhaps you could have an email link up with folk that can assist with rule changes and the possibility of unintended consequence and their impact that may have not been recognised by the rules committee.

[John B 93]

Akarana was given to Australia a long time before the antiquities act began to be applied to classic boats. The catalyst for that was Iorangi being packed up for export at Orams back ooo  late '90s or early 2000's? She was met on the docks at  Sydney and a bond posted for her return. 

 I forget what the definition of a classic is now  but its more like 1949 than 1969.49 to 1970 might be the modern classics.

[Sabre 376]

Could some/most of the contents of a liferaft be transferred to a grab bag? ie a Cat 1 grab bag rather than a Cat 1 liferaft? It would simplify and therefore reduce the servicing costs (which are rediculous) and give more affordable options for filling the grab bag with the appropriate gear for the intended use. It would also give users the opportunity to replace the food/water/batteries etc more often.

 

It is getting to the point where liferafts are becoming a disposable item for offshore sailing which really doesn’t fit in this age of reduce, re-use, recycle. YNZ, any thoughts on this?

[DrWatson 265]

Could some/most of the contents of a liferaft be transferred to a grab bag? ie a Cat 1 grab bag rather than a Cat 1 liferaft? It would simplify and therefore reduce the servicing costs (which are rediculous) and give more affordable options for filling the grab bag with the appropriate gear for the intended use. It would also give users the opportunity to replace the food/water/batteries etc more often.

 

It is getting to the point where liferafts are becoming a disposable item for offshore sailing which really doesn’t fit in this age of reduce, re-use, recycle. YNZ, any thoughts on this?

 

Very good point.

[Black Panther 824]

The liferaft industry is a total rort. I've heard drafts being condemned that are only 7 years old. Either the company saying that is crooked or the product is not fit for purpose.

[YNZ 14]

Could some/most of the contents of a liferaft be transferred to a grab bag? ie a Cat 1 grab bag rather than a Cat 1 liferaft? It would simplify and therefore reduce the servicing costs (which are rediculous) and give more affordable options for filling the grab bag with the appropriate gear for the intended use. It would also give users the opportunity to replace the food/water/batteries etc more often.

 

It is getting to the point where liferafts are becoming a disposable item for offshore sailing which really doesn’t fit in this age of reduce, re-use, recycle. YNZ, any thoughts on this?

 

Just a heads up, I won't be giving any direct answers to requests for change - I'm not a subject matter expert on some of this stuff. What I'll do is take your feedback, constructive criticism, suggested amendments and reasoning, then put it to the group (led by Angus Willison, our Safety and Technical Officer), who will consider all the information for the new regulations. Anything that is a serious safety concern can be addressed prior to the new regulations in 2021 and an amendment issued if warranted. 

Andrew

[Jon 160]

It’s great that your offering a direct route of feedback for the general sailor

Thanks Andrew

[Sabre 376]

Just a heads up, I won't be giving any direct answers to requests for change - I'm not a subject matter expert on some of this stuff. What I'll do is take your feedback, constructive criticism, suggested amendments and reasoning, then put it to the group (led by Angus Willison, our Safety and Technical Officer), who will consider all the information for the new regulations. Anything that is a serious safety concern can be addressed prior to the new regulations in 2021 and an amendment issued if warranted. 

 

Andrew

That makes sense. Thank you for taking notice and providing this avenue

[Guest BOIGuy]

I have read through the safety regulations a number of times over the years and more so recently, I would like to make a few comments for consideration, a couple of technical considerations and a few comments on perceived ambiguity, inconsistency or lack of clear definition.

1. cat 3 bilge pump, nowhere does it say the pump must be operable from on deck, the current inspectors check list says it does, I believe the location should be able to be above or below deck while complying with 13.14 – not really a regulation problem, more an implementation issue.

2. Sails, I believe 15.15 is a bit inconsistent, the initial introduction says:

   “These specifications give maximum areas......It is imperative that all vessels have sufficient storm sails to work off a leeshore in severe conditions”

   It is immediately followed by

   “Skippers should consult their sailmaker and designer to arrive at the best sizes. The sizes given below are maximum suggested sizes only and should be followed only after due consultation”

   Then we proceed to a number of size recommendations ( or rules, its really not that clear) and to top it off we get 15.16:

   “A storm trysail or mainsail reefing to reduce the luff to at least 35%”

   I have recently commissioned a new Main Sail, I may wish to sail Cat 3 races in the future. I had an extensive consultation with my sail maker over the reef points I wanted. My existing sail was used on an extended windward journey in winds averaging 40 knots with gusts well over 50 and seas averaging 3 to 4 meters, with a relatively baggy main 2^nd reef we still managed to make 5 – 6 knots to windward and were pleasantly surprised at the yachts performance. My new sail will have its second reef approximately 1m higher, I believe this will cope with any condition I wish to continue, or even start, sailing in at cat 3 and then some.

   It is nowhere near reducing the luff to 35%

   So whats the answer, where did 35% suddenly be deemed necessary, and can I or not consult my sailmaker and proceed with what works for my boat?

3. Gas, 16.19 is a bit of a double up with 16.09 as the regulations dictate the locker requirements and is not correct regarding drain size (19mm) but the regs are a bit vague here too as the don’t say if this is a nominal pipe size an ID or an OD. There is a huge practical problem with the whole gas regulations as there isn’t enough gas fitters in the country to certify boats to the level required by the regulations, even if you can find a licensed fitter,when you mention boat thats the last you will see of them,maybe different in Auckland but most of them busy enough doing houses and business jobs.

4. SR APPENDIX 7 CONSTRUCTION STANDARDS

   “A monohull yacht with the earliest of Age or Series Date before 1 January 2010 shall comply with the requirements of(a) through (e) above or with Appendix M to the World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations (available from www.sailing.org).”

   Call me stupid but I couldn’t find appendix M

There is more on my mind but this will be a start, I believe some rationalisation around liferafts and grab bags is in order, as commented already. I also have concerns over the increasing level of regulation and the implications on the costs of voyaging offshore, on land we now have the concept of reasonably practical as opposed to all practical steps, going too far starts to encourage people to circumvent rules and regulation, the discussions regarding offshore registration have an element of this indicated. I’m also concerned we are going to be hit with a whole lot of new training qualifications required and hence course fees etc. I have yet to do a course that actually made me competent, despite what the certificate said, it was experience that led to competence. Maybe like the Australians we need to distinguish between racing and cruising, a lot of those really great books of inspiring voyages of the past would not have happened nor some of our greatest sailors emerged if our current regulators had their say.

 

 

[BOIGuy 179]

Cna someone confirm if this forum is still an avenue to raise points with YNZ about the safety regulation?

[YNZ 14]

This forum is an avenue to raise considerations for the next edition of the regulations (2021 - 2024).

 

If you have more immediate concerns, contact Angus Willison at angus@yachtingnz.org.nz.

[Freedom GBE 27]

Cat 3

 

Very happy that elctronic flares are now acceptable. Reduces the risk of fire in my opinion, well done. When is the next review?

 

Four kilos of fire extinguishers. We dont have an engine room, 500 grams  by the switch pannel and a few buckets in each hull is all we need.

 

Liferafts are a waste of time on our wooden catamaran.

 

Never used our echosounder. 

 

Our bilge pumps always blocks up. A bailer and bucket is much more reliable and should be an option.

 

Almanac is just clutter.

[Black Panther 824]

I have an almanac on my phone???