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Fatality - Northland


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39 minutes ago, marinheiro said:

if you want to read about registration, this should help send you to sleep

https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1992/0089/latest/whole.html#DLM276622

 

That's the relevant document.  So you need to create a foreign  entity.  All the offshore registries offer this. Can't be that hard - just look around at the number of boats that have done it. Interestingly most that have registered offshore to date have done it to avoid tax.

What I can assure everyone there is a significant and growing number of boat owners in NZ looking into registering offshore. Nearly all trying to avoid getting Cat 1.

I can certainly sympathize with the multihull owners on this one.

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48 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

 Interestingly most that have registered offshore to date have done it to avoid tax.

you cannot avoid importing a vessel with offshore registration, it all comes down to the period of time a vessel is in the country irrespective of where it is registered. If a visiting boat is in NZ,normally  it has to leave before the 2 year temporary import waiver expires or GST and Duty become payable. I understand there is some flexibility from customs at present due to closed borders re tax, I know of several yachts sitting on the hard in the north which have exceeded the 2 years. However this is the exception

Same applies any where in the world

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Yes you can import a boat and pay all taxes (duty + GST) but it can remain registered offshore.

I could have done this with Fogg but it was a tricky time exporting her from Malaysia -the local port authorities wanted to know why a yacht registered in the Cook Is was being put on a ship in KL to be sent you NZ during lockdown and movement of essential goods & people only. It made things much easier to get clearance being able to show that a NZ citizen (me) was the new owner and that Fogg was also de-registered from Cooks and newly registered in NZ. I have no other use for the NZ registration now Fogg is here - it was purely a tool to get the boat shipped more easily - hence I might reverse that registration process.

I would challenge the technical wording of the CI website - my experience dealing with them is things moved quickly and easily when you offered them said fees. CIYS is meant to be the mechanism for the boat being registered via a foreign (non-NZ) entity allowing CI registration. I reckon if you pitched up with the right docs and fees it would happen fine.

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20 minutes ago, Fogg said:

Yes you can import a boat and pay all taxes (duty + GST) but it can remain registered offshore.

Yes. You can, absolutely agree.  You can also register a boat that's already in NZ offshore. There is nothing preventing either of these scenarios. 

What you can't do, is subsequently leave the country for an overseas port if the boat is New Zealand-owned. 

To leave you must either (a) transfer the ownership of the boat to a foreign entity, eg a Cook Islands Company; or (b) register the boat in NZ. 

A boat is deemed to be NZ owned if it is majority owned by a NZ citizens. 

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All of this talk to avoid a rule change. ??

does this make everyone safer ??

Or is this the law of unintended consequences 

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I’ll be measuring my windows next time I’m on board 

Do I measure the total glass area from outside or the opening area from within ?  There’s about an inch all around that’s the fixing

32583762-9D3F-4786-9A84-C3FAA0E3ACB8.png

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11 minutes ago, Jon said:

I’ll be measuring my windows next time I’m on board 

Do I measure the total glass area from outside or the opening area from within ?  There’s about an inch all around that’s the fixing

32583762-9D3F-4786-9A84-C3FAA0E3ACB8.png

It's the opening area's within, not the size of the glass.

Some boats have a single piece of glass covering multiple internal openings.

 

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17 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

It's the opening area's within, not the size of the glass.

Some boats have a single piece of glass covering multiple internal openings.

 

Yes my largest is like this with a large mullion in the middle ( behind the fender on the side deck in above photo )

I think I’ll be ok then or very close

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4 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

Yes. You can, absolutely agree.  You can also register a boat that's already in NZ offshore. There is nothing preventing either of these scenarios. 

What you can't do, is subsequently leave the country for an overseas port if the boat is New Zealand-owned. 

To leave you must either (a) transfer the ownership of the boat to a foreign entity, eg a Cook Islands Company; or (b) register the boat in NZ. 

A boat is deemed to be NZ owned if it is majority owned by a NZ citizens. 

Where are you getting your facts from?  This doesn't tally with my understanding of the issue.  Some links would be useful.

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1 hour ago, Dtwo said:

Where are you getting your facts from?  This doesn't tally with my understanding of the issue.  Some links would be useful.

Two places,

(1) this happened to a colleague of mine who was a dual Cook Is and NZ Citizen about 25 years ago.  He bought his boat in NZ and personally registered it in the Cook Islands.  To leave NZ he had to get the boat registered here, they would not let him leave.

(2) at the time he and I reviewed the legislation which is here and hasn't changed since 1992.

Ref Section 6(2) which states:

A ship is required to be registered in either Part A or Part B of the Register if—

   (a)the ship is a pleasure vessel or does not exceed 24 metres register length; and
   (b)the ship proceeds on an overseas voyage; and
   (c)the ship is a New Zealand-owned ship.

The definition of NZ owned is further defined in the Act and has additional complexities for part ownership arrangements, but specifically to the conversation here, if you are a NZ Citizen and you personally own the boat then it's deemed to be a NZ owned ship.  However, to be clear, if a NZ Citizen owns a foreign entity and that foreign entity owns the boat then the boat is not deemed to be NZ owned, because it's not owned by the NZ Citizen, the boat is owned by the foreign company.

This is why when you register a boat in the Cook Islands you do it via a Foreign Entity, not personally.

54 minutes ago, lateral said:

So if I register my boat in Jersey I can't leave NZ?

In my experience if, you are a NZ Citizen, and you personally own the boat and thus your personal name is on the boat registration and not the name of a foreign entity, then no, you will not be allowed to leave.

This is why every place that lets you register under a flag of convivence sets up a shell company for you.  Eg, if you want to register a boat in the Cooks' you create a cook island company and "sell" the boat to that company.

FWIW, This isn't a NZ only thing - Australia has exactly the same legislation - and we both probably coppied it from the rest of the commonwealth.

I would love to hear from anyone, who has a boat registered in there own personal name, under a foreign flag, is a NZ citizen, and has successfully departed NZ.

My understanding and experience has been that it is not possible.  Would love to be shown that this is not the case with an actual personal experience. 

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The NZ rules / constraints posted above are not untypical of other countries. Which is why the Cook Islands saw an opportunity (gap) in the market for this. And they’ve made it as easy as possible.

In short, you register with the Cook Islands via the Cook Islands Yacht Squadron - which has been specifically set up as an entity to meet the ownership requirements of yachts with their owners (like us) living in places like NZ.

Longer version:

From Maritime Cook Islands website:

Ownership
Registration of a vessel upon the Cook Islands Ships Registry is governed by the Cook Islands Ship Registration Act 2007; The Act requires that a vessel be owned by or on a demise charter to a "qualified person".


There are three ways in which an owner can become a Qualified Person:


a. Cook Islands Yacht Squadron
The easiest and fastest way to fulfil ownership requirements as a Qualified Person is via the Cook Islands Yacht Squadron (CIYS). Members of the Cook Islands Yacht Squadron (CIYS) are eligible to have their yachts registered in the Cook Islands without having to register a company in the Cook Islands. The definition of a qualified person includes companies and trusts as well as individuals or partnerships of individuals. In this way foreign corporation can become members of CIYS without having to register those corporations in the Cook Islands.

b. International Company Incorporation
The Cook Islands International Companies Act 1981-82 governs the formation and activities of international companies. The structure of the International Companies Act allows companies to be formed and operated with both flexibility and administrative ease. An International Company must be incorporated through a licensed trustee company, which will handle the registration process and administrative duties.


c. Foreign Company Registration
Foreign Companies are incorporated outside of the Cook Islands and are registered as foreign companies under the International Companies Act. Registered foreign companies may establish a branch with a place of business in the Cook Islands. A Cook Islands Trust company will handle the registration process and administrative duties for those intending to register a Cook Islands Foreign Company.

Size and Age Limitation
There is no size or age limitation for yachts.

Home Port
The owner of a yacht registered in the Cook Islands has the option of selecting from one of the following Ports of Registry:
1. Avatiu
2. CIYS – Cook Islands
3. CIYS – Avatiu
4. CIYS – Arutanga
5. Arutanga

 

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To the best of my knowledge CD is correct.  But using another entity is commonplace and the people at the other end do all the hard work.

 

Personally I'd rather be registered here. But when the hassle and cost get to a certain point you have to look at the other options.

Seriously how many of today's catamarans could meet this one?

Ive already saved thousands because I haven't left the last 2 years. 

 

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4 hours ago, Jon said:

All of this talk to avoid a rule change. ?? does this make everyone safer ?? Or is this the law of unintended consequences 

Smartest comment on this thread all day - unfortunately I have contributed to a lot of the hot air :-(

In an attempt to steer the thread in the correct direction and back to the issue at hand.

==================

I don't believe that foreign yacht registration should be the first port of call for people wanting to "circumvent" this rule. 

NZ yacht inspectors have discretion available to them when it comes to determining if a boat is sea worthy and meets the requirements for departing NZ.  They are required to use this discretion fairly and equally, this is set down in the MaritimeNZ rules for yacht inspectors.

An astute owner will be able to obtain supporting documentation from a manufacturer, designer or reputable boat builder, which calls out that the addition of storm shutters would impact the integrity of the boat to an unacceptable level.  Said experts will also be able to provide evidence that the windows, their design and structural characteristics make them as strong and as safe as the cabin they are attached too.  The windows might even be structural and part of the cabin structure.

There are transparent floors in the sky tower observation deck, some countries have gone as far as to making transparent walkways which support hundreds of people.  By all reports these are stronger and safer than an equivalent concrete structure.  So it's obviously technically possible to design a window and frame in the side of a boat which is safe.

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I think that’s a fair point and it’s a sad day when emerging rules at home lead to discussion about ‘escaping’ overseas. But as BP says there are points when you start to think about this option - especially if you think things might continue to get worse.

On the specifics of your windows being examined by a NZ inspector and entering into a debate about whether the boat is safe or not - that’s where I struggle to agree.

Why should the burden be on me / any owner to prove that my unmodified production yacht would be harmed by a crazy new addition dreamed up by NZ bureaucrats? What do they think they know that Philippe Briand and the naval architects at Jeanneau (in my case) don’t know? Why should I need to ask Jeanneau “Hey, can you please confirm that this crazy new idea from Maritime NZ to modify my boat is a crazy idea?” They would quite rightly probably laugh at me or ignore my request.

i don’t need to ask the manufacturer of my production car to prove it’s safe every time I go for a WOF so why my boat?

I understand that non-production boats might be more difficult although in many cases they might be better designed & built than a production boat.

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45 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

Smartest comment on this thread all day - unfortunately I have contributed to a lot of the hot air :-(

In an attempt to steer the thread in the correct direction and back to the issue at hand.

==================

I don't believe that foreign yacht registration should be the first port of call for people wanting to "circumvent" this rule. 

NZ yacht inspectors have discretion available to them when it comes to determining if a boat is sea worthy and meets the requirements for departing NZ.  They are required to use this discretion fairly and equally, this is set down in the MaritimeNZ rules for yacht inspectors.

An astute owner will be able to obtain supporting documentation from a manufacturer, designer or reputable boat builder, which calls out that the addition of storm shutters would impact the integrity of the boat to an unacceptable level.  Said experts will also be able to provide evidence that the windows, their design and structural characteristics make them as strong and as safe as the cabin they are attached too.  The windows might even be structural and part of the cabin structure.

There are transparent floors in the sky tower observation deck, some countries have gone as far as to making transparent walkways which support hundreds of people.  By all reports these are stronger and safer than an equivalent concrete structure.  So it's obviously technically possible to design a window and frame in the side of a boat which is safe.

The issue is that the inspectors will now have to grant an exemption that is directly contrary to the rules. These new rules have left the inspectors between a rock and a hard place. They were able to ignore the issue this year as the rules only came about a month before the start of the cruising season. 

I've had some discussions with my inspector about this and his initial thoughts were that he may be able to still sign us off but would have to get a second inspector to check my windows with him, just to cover his ass if something goes wrong in the future. That will only be a short term arrangement and eventually we'll need to meet the rule, making the boat weaker and unsafer in the process.  

I know a lot of current Cruising Multis and only one has shutters, and they had them made prior to this as their windows have a significant curve to them and they knew it would be an issue if they broke one. 

I don't know where I'm going to store my 9 shutters in between passages. Our current emergency ply window is as big as a single bunktop. 9 of them is going to make that bunk unusable. 

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..... until they aren't?

https://www.google.com/search?q=glass+bridge+shatters&rlz=1C1GCEU_enNZ893NZ893&oq=glass+bridge+shatters&aqs=chrome..69i57j46i175i199j0i433j46i433j0i131i433i457j0i402l2j0i10i131i433j0i131i433j0i271.5457j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'm not weighing in one way or the other - I think the reality is that well engineered windows could be an adequate solution, but they could also be a potential dire weakness. And whether a shattered window would pose a material risk to life would depend on the individual vessel.

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2 hours ago, Adrianp said:

The issue is that the inspectors will now have to grant an exemption that is directly contrary to the rules. These new rules have left the inspectors between a rock and a hard place. They were able to ignore the issue this year as the rules only came about a month before the start of the cruising season. 

I've had some discussions with my inspector about this and his initial thoughts were that he may be able to still sign us off but would have to get a second inspector to check my windows with him, just to cover his ass if something goes wrong in the future. That will only be a short term arrangement and eventually we'll need to meet the rule, making the boat weaker and unsafer in the process.  

I know a lot of current Cruising Multis and only one has shutters, and they had them made prior to this as their windows have a significant curve to them and they knew it would be an issue if they broke one. 

I don't know where I'm going to store my 9 shutters in between passages. Our current emergency ply window is as big as a single bunktop. 9 of them is going to make that bunk unusable. 

What’s the deal with the  French doors on most cruising multi’s, surely they would also need shutters?

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6 minutes ago, Jon said:

What’s the deal with the  French doors on most cruising multi’s, surely they would also need shutters?

The (M) rule applies to exposed windows only, while the (K) rule applies to all windows.

Guessing that those back windows probably are not considered 'exposed'. 

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35 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

The (M) rule applies to exposed windows only, while the (K) rule applies to all windows.

Guessing that those back windows probably are not considered 'exposed'. 

Except to following seas 😳

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