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Damn the Rules, Rocna Inventor doing the NW Passage


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On 31/08/2020 at 6:48 AM, grantmc said:

Just thought that to try and keep the thread on track, and perhaps add a little sanity, here's a reminder of the Kiwis who've completed a successful NW passage:
2000    Evohe (25m yacht)    Stephen Kafka
2009    Tyhina (10.4m yacht)    Peter Elliot
2010    Astral Express (12.5m yacht)    Graeme Kendall single handed over two seasons
2011    Kotuku (12m yacht)    Ian Douglass
2012    Tokimata (13m yacht)    Peter Garden
2017    Larissa (13.7m cutter)    Mark Domney
2017    Tiama (15.2m skoop)    Hank Haazen

Just to add Australia have had only 6 successes including 3 by Roger Wallis (Philos in 2012 and again 2014, then in 2017 on Abel Tasman).

Earlier I listed the above table of New Zealand successes. 
I am stunned and amazed that no one on the forum has picked up on my error.
Till now some members have been so quick to point and scream at my occasional mistakes and stumbles. 

But anyway as you'll all know, Peter Elliott is of course a true Aussie battler.
Whilst his boat Typhina was built in France, Peter flagged her as Australian shortly after buying her off a French family who'd lived on her for 20 odd years. A link to his fascinating web site that tells the story of their two season NW Passage http://www.tyhina.com/index.html 

So that makes the score Aussies 7 and Kiwis 6, so we really need Pete Evans to do the business and at least equal the score.

One last, somewhat unrelated point:
I've always been impressed to find that no matter how remote, or how vicious the weather, there are inevitably people living in the vicinity that sail there on a regular basis. An example is the guy in Greenland who bought Astral Express from Graeme Kendall after he'd completed the NW Passage but found it was too late late for his circumnavigation. The following season, Peter 'borrowed' the boat back to complete his project. The guy in Greenland basically just bought the boat hoping to win a few more round the cans races at his local yacht club in Greenland.

Peter Elliott has a similar story about Pat Semotiak, the guy that 'looked after' Typhina over the long cold Artic Winter in Nome. Here's an extract from the log that again demonstrates  what may be so difficult a place for us to comprehend is just someone else's 'normal':  'We are now back in Melbourne after a successful summer of sailing. Tyhina waits patiently for us under the watchful eye of our friend Pat Hahn. We met Pat through Peter Semotiak our ice and weather router. Upon hearing of our arrival in Nome harbour Pat came down to the boat and invited us back to his house to for lunch and a long overdue shower. ... Pat grew up in Nome and is also a Northwest Passage maker, only he did it in an umiak (an open walrus skinned boat) in the late 70's with much more ice and far less support. He has worked, fished, skied, hiked and sledded around Nome all his life ...'.
And needless to say Pat Semotiak isn't credited as having traversed the North West Passage.

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54 minutes ago, 2flit said:

... This is also a big deal for Canada because this will become a passage for oil tankers thru a pristine Canadian wilderness area. Just think about what has happened this August with the oil tanker running aground in Mauritius due to operator error and a desire to get closer to land for the crew to use their cell phones!

Mauritius is too far away to be relevant.
The Exxon Valdez disaster brings the point home in a more germane way me thinks.

Until Covid, there'd been considerable concern about cruise liners doing the trip, and that sooner or latter a ship would founder and thousands of people would need evacuation. Something that the area doesn't have the capability to do. 

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1 hour ago, 2flit said:

Yes, but  I think he is technically making a 'Landfall' if he is anchoring on Canadian soil.

 

Quote

I might tend to view this differently if he was making a non-stop passage, but because I have read that he is anchoring and if true, the guy is violating Canadian Law.

The right of innocent passage [...] must be continuous and expeditious, but includes stopping and anchoring in the course of ordinary navigation, or [...] 

^^^^

That's taken from an NZ Government document in reference to foreign ships anchoring at the Kermadec Islands while exercising their right to innocent passage.

Surely dropping anchor, while waiting for the the wind to change direction to move a gazillion ton ice berg, would be considered 'ordinary navigation'? 

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2 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

 

The right of innocent passage [...] must be continuous and expeditious, but includes stopping and anchoring in the course of ordinary navigation, or [...] 

^^^^

That's taken from an NZ Government document in reference to foreign ships anchoring at the Kermadec Islands while exercising their right to innocent passage.

I would suspect, that dropping anchor, while waiting for the the wind to change direction to move a gazillion ton ice berg, would be considered normal navigation. 

nice, great work... do you have a  link to the entire document and a page citation if needed?  Thank-you for the post

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1 hour ago, 2flit said:

nice, great work... do you have a  link to the entire document and a page citation if needed?  Thank-you for the post

Well I now cannot find the link - lol - it was on the DOC website 😕 - it's not even showing up in Google.

Here are some other references - unfortunately not by NZ government:

Article 18: https://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm 

http://heardisland.antarctica.gov.au/protection-and-management/legislation-and-other-requirements/international-agreements

^^ The bottom three paragraphs of this are the exact same text that was in the PDF on the DOC website.

 

 

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Meaning of Passage is defined under Article 18 of the UNCLOS III.

1. Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose of:

(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or

(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.

2. Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.

 

In the current situation this bit (in Orange) might come into effect though;

United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS III) was adopted in 1982 [1] , it is also known as the Law of the Sea Treaty [2] . Its purpose is to establish a comprehensive set of rules governing the oceans and to replace previous U.N. Conventions on the Law of the Sea, 1958 (UNCLOS I) which was adopted in 1958 and another in 1960 (UNCLOS II), since these two convention were believed to be inadequate. The term Innocent Passage is defined under international law referring to a ship or aircraft’s right to enter and pass through another’s territory so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the other state. Under Article 19 of the UNCLOS III it is defined “Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State.” Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law. The right of innocent passage of foreign ships through the territorial waters of a coastal state is one of the oldest and most universally recognized rules of public international law.

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16 minutes ago, Island Time said:

In the current situation this bit (in Orange) might come into effect though;

None of it applies because the Canadian position is that the NW Passage are Canadian Internal Waterways and therefore are not subject to Article 18 at all. 

For them to deny Right of Passage under that clause they'd first have to accept that the nw passage was not an internal waterway.  And that isn't going to happen... 

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8 hours ago, Kevin McCready said:

Wheels promoted the notion in his post and I hope it was just an error in understanding on his behalf and not a part of his belief system. These are important matters and it's essential that we don't make such fundamental errors in discussing them and in treating people humanely and treating them in accordance with our legal obligations.

My comment was only in support of KM's understanding of how it all took place.
While I am all for refugees coming here, I do think there needs to be a certain process that needs to be adhered to. I mean by this, we will take in x number if refugees for the year. This guy managed to jump the cue so to speak. That means that some other person that was more toward the front of the que has now possibly missed out. If it did work out that way, I don't think that is exactly fair.

 

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Wheels, there is no refugee queue. That is precisely the nasty meme that the RW is spreading. Please stop spreading it. If a person seeking refugee status arrives on our shores they are entitled to have their claims heard no matter how they arrived. There is no queue whatsoever that we can say to them 'go back to where you came from and wait your turn in the queue'. BTW, last time I looked at the figures, most illegal migrants to NZ and Australia were from the UK and USA.

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2 hours ago, Kevin McCready said:

Wheels, there is no refugee queue. That is precisely the nasty meme that the RW is spreading. Please stop spreading it. If a person seeking refugee status arrives on our shores they are entitled to have their claims heard no matter how they arrived. There is no queue whatsoever that we can say to them 'go back to where you came from and wait your turn in the queue'. BTW, last time I looked at the figures, most illegal migrants to NZ and Australia were from the UK and USA.

This is the last comment I am going to make on this as many are getting testy about it not be relevant to the topic.

But you are wrong. In regards to the discussed individual, he was/is part of the number of refugees we are taking in from that Oz Island group. We are taking a certain number each year(1500 was it?). So you could call that a Cue of sorts. And they were supposed to be vetted to ensure a possible terrorist was not using the situation to sneak through. It has nothing to do with Migrants, illegal or otherwise. These people have refugee status without being on our shores by the way. Oz placed them in camps on the Island and the US was supposed to take them till Trump cried unfair and pulled the plug on that. So NZ said we'll step up to the plate and increase our intake number.
This particular individual managed the cue because thye Greens Lawyer Woman got involved and they hatched the plan of getting him here for the Book thingy.
So you get your facts straight.

One thing I cannot claim as correct is that there was a rumor that things may have been a little more "personal" between them and she used her position to get certain things actioned. But that was a rumor. Although one has to question why all the effort to get him here if he was just one of the many refugees.

And apart from the rumor, I am looking at the facts..... well as accurately as you can get them from the Gvt and reputable Media. Not some Meme or whatever, not from some biased Left/Right groups.

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Hiya Wheels.

Refugees can come into the country in a number of ways. The UN refugee resettlement program is one, direct application from outside a country is another, application for asylum once landed in a country is another.  There is no queue.  Please repeat this to yourself - there is no queue.

The people on Manus Island have not been transferred to NZ as a group.  In fact, the Aus govt has specifically declined to allow that.  This particular individual was part of a deal between Aus and US for a refugee swap, but that had not been finalised as you note.

He was not in NZ because of his refugee status per se - he was here as a writer with an international reputation.  He was invited by that group.  His invitation may have been via a lawyer - its not uncommon for them to act as an intermediary or advocate since refugees, almost by definition, lack capacity to act for themselves. 

He applied for and got a work visa for that purpose.  When the visa lapsed he applied as a refugee.  He went through the standard process presumably - no political party or other entity questioned it at the time - and was granted refugee status through that process.  The process is more than just ensuring they are not a terrorist btw, and given the well documented history for this individual, its unlikely that this was ever a concern.

So, there is no queue, but there is a quota.  Its not first-come-first served.  Each application is taken on its own merits.  He applied, the application was considered against the relevant criteria, he was accepted.

Nothing to see here, move along.

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Yeah, just one more post, then one more reply, then one other reply. Oh, maybe a counter reply.

Wheels, have you removed your self imposed ban from Smalltalk yet?

Discussion of refugees etc, lets see, Technical talk, no. Cup talk? no, short talk? no, hmmm, cruise talk, nope. I can't work out where some back and for 'I'm physically disgusted' b refugee banter should go either... fairly sure its not in a marine talk thread on the North West passage.

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20 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

None of it applies because the Canadian position is that the NW Passage are Canadian Internal Waterways and therefore are not subject to Article 18 at all. 

Ahem, now about that OP . . . 

I guess that explains why the Canadians claim the right to exclude US boats from their waters, not just anchoring, but sailing over them. 

But don't get me wrong, the USAean gummint is worse. 

Our continent could be witnessing the unraveling of 200 year old Rush-Bagot Treaty 

Sad

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