CarpeDiem 513 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Psyche said: All my info on Caulerpa is from crew and google, so I remain uneducated on the problem and the solution 🤔 It's not clear if you're claimimg that you (a) want to be educated and (b) cannot find information to educate yourself? Or that you are just content remaining uneducated. There's a plethora of information available on the damage that Caulerpa has done to regions around the world. Even to the extent that local fish species have become poisonous to humans because the fish have built immunity to the toxin and store it in their flesh. Someone in this thread suggested how great it would be if we could work out how to get Snapper to eat it. I think you'd find it's quite the opposite unless your desire is to eliminate the Snapper fishing industry. https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/caulerpa-taxifolia-or-killer-alga#:~:text=The Problem%3A The invasive strain,are contained in its foliage. https://www.mpi.govt.nz/dmsdocument/51427-Questions-were-frequently-asked-about-exotic-Caulerpa-and-its-management https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/killer-algae/ There's 88ha of the stuff in Blind Bay. 88ha! Can you comprehend the amount of marine life that has been displaced? This is like North Korea taking over the suburb of Herne Bay, and enforcing their rule of law, while those that live in Wellington sit back and ask what's the actual problem with this. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 513 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Too add to the above here's some more education: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/132068603/killer-seaweed-invasion-is-an-environmental-disaster-on-the-scale-of-the-rena 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ex Machina 384 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 I fear that most people’s first knowledge of it will be on 27th of December at red head or Albert passage . Good chance you will get turned away from entering the inner bay . Hell , even whangamumu and whangaruru could be affected by then . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 386 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 11 hours ago, aardvarkash10 said: this runs at the level of paranoia seen in various other conspiracy theories. You'll be burning effagies on the steps of Parliament next. Where did that come from Aardvark? almost sounds like a personal attack. Completely irrelevant to the topic or thread. Disappointing coming from a moderator. The basic point is, there is no evidence boaties are spreading anything. But MPI are publicly pilloring boaties. Further, after lengthy personal, face to face conversations with two officials, one being a specialist on caulerpa, they believe it is most likely the aquarium trade. Further again, if anchoring is banned in these areas, how could a boatie spread it? If this does turn into a situation where snapper are inedible due to toxin accumulation (just like ciguetera), don't you think it would be a bit rough being blamed for that, when you had nothing to do with it, and there was no evidence any of your demographic was the problem in the first place? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,723 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 3 hours ago, CarpeDiem said: There's a plethora of information available on the damage that Caulerpa has done to regions around the world. But nothing on the impact of recreational boating on its ability to spread, nothing on what they hope to achieve and nothing on how to achieve that or how they would measure success. Plus a little information on progress to date would be nice. Oh yeah, let's chuck in at least some kind of response to questions about shitty antifouling and closing slipways. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zozza 335 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Not meaning to get political here, but NZ is opening its doors - post Covid - to the world like never before, from Cruise ships, to immigration, tourism, overseas yachites, new trading partners (meaning more trading cargo ships). What did everyone expect to happen when you do that? First it was Mediterranean fanworm, now it's Mediterranean Caulerpa, and next time it will be something else....there are always shades of gray, but I am black and white on this: Either close NZ, and definitely close Hauraki Gulf and BOI - ban all boating for five years, and embark on a multi $Million if not a billion dollar eradication programme. Look how huge the area is already they would need to cover...thousands of miles of coastline. Or - do nothing and just accept this is going to happen with more invasive marine species now and in the future and they are hella more hard to contain than land based invasive species, and therefore will cost way more to try to eradicate. Not making a black and white decision, and instead going for the gray like with fanworm just p*sses everyone off and ultimately does jack all anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 513 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 8 hours ago, Black Panther said: But nothing on the impact of recreational boating on its ability to spread, nothing on what they hope to achieve and nothing on how to achieve that or how they would measure success. Plus a little information on progress to date would be nice. Oh yeah, let's chuck in at least some kind of response to questions about shitty antifouling and closing slipways. Antifoul plays no role in preventing the spread, the rest of the information you seek is contained within the links I provided. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ex Machina 384 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Having a punt at how it may have got there . looking at how much got displaced at barrier during cyclone Gabrielle and seeing the drift path of 888 from Fitzroy it may have just got there on the wind and currents . Going back to the 888 drift path , if some of the stuff did get displaced out of Fitzroy it could be all up the coast already . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 513 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Ex Machina said: Having a punt at how it may have got there . looking at how much got displaced at barrier during cyclone Gabrielle and seeing the drift path of 888 from Fitzroy it may have just got there on the wind and currents . Going back to the 888 drift path , if some of the stuff did get displaced out of Fitzroy it could be all up the coast already . It doesn't survive at depth and can't establish itself. It's limit seems to be about 40m. And, unlike 888, it sinks. Anyway, 888 was last seen headed for Tahiti. Has wreckage shown up on the NZ coast? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Psyche 759 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 14 hours ago, CarpeDiem said: It's not clear if you're claimimg that you (a) want to be educated and (b) cannot find information to educate yourself? Or that you are just content remaining uneducated. There's a plethora of information available on the damage that Caulerpa has done to regions around the world. Even to the extent that local fish species have become poisonous to humans because the fish have built immunity to the toxin and store it in their flesh. Someone in this thread suggested how great it would be if we could work out how to get Snapper to eat it. I think you'd find it's quite the opposite unless your desire is to eliminate the Snapper fishing industry. https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/caulerpa-taxifolia-or-killer-alga#:~:text=The Problem%3A The invasive strain,are contained in its foliage. https://www.mpi.govt.nz/dmsdocument/51427-Questions-were-frequently-asked-about-exotic-Caulerpa-and-its-management https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/killer-algae/ There's 88ha of the stuff in Blind Bay. 88ha! Can you comprehend the amount of marine life that has been displaced? This is like North Korea taking over the suburb of Herne Bay, and enforcing their rule of law, while those that live in Wellington sit back and ask what's the actual problem with this. The point I am making is that information is sparse. DIY research shouldnt be required because nothing much is communicated, if this is the problem that google tells me it is then it should be a major issue put front and centre to all the stakeholders. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 513 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Psyche said: The point I am making is that information is sparse. DIY research shouldnt be required because nothing much is communicated, if this is the problem that google tells me it is then it should be a major issue put front and centre to all the stakeholders. MPI ran a campaign. MPI spent a large amount of $$ on this. Unfortunately times have moved on in the last 100yrs and they can't simply put an advert in the local paper and have everyone become educated. I have seen it in may places. It was in the RYC and Squadron newsletter. Multiple nzherald.co.nz and stuff news articles. Volunteers have handed out phamplets over Xmas. It is in nz fishing magazines and it has been on the radio. It was in the NZ Geographic. And of course it has been here on Crew. Those are just the places off the top of my head where I have read about it. What method of distribution would you recommend for every user of the three bays at Great Barrier? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 386 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 4 hours ago, CarpeDiem said: Antifoul plays no role in preventing the spread, the rest of the information you seek is contained within the links I provided. The official website disagrees with your point. Do you understand why people are confused now? They say: What you can do Keeping your boat and equipment clean is the best thing that you can do to avoid spreading marine pests, including exotic Caulerpa. Exotic Caulerpa — Clean Below? Good to go. (marinepests.nz) Edit: To find the controlled area notice you have to click a link to the MPI website, look through a long list of bullet points, find a link about halfway down, click on that link, which takes you to a page with a couple of other links, and on that page click on a link that opens a pdf. That is 10 pages long, and you have to scroll down to the last 3 pages to find maps of where you can't anchor. If you didn't know there was an anchoring ban, or you don't know what a controlled area notice means, you would be forgiven for having a quick browse of the "Clean Below" website and think all you needed to do was clean your hull and check you anchor for weed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvarkash10 1,073 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 12 hours ago, K4309 said: Where did that come from Aardvark? almost sounds like a personal attack. Completely irrelevant to the topic or thread. Disappointing coming from a moderator. The basic point is, there is no evidence boaties are spreading anything. But MPI are publicly pilloring boaties. Further, after lengthy personal, face to face conversations with two officials, one being a specialist on caulerpa, they believe it is most likely the aquarium trade. Further again, if anchoring is banned in these areas, how could a boatie spread it? If this does turn into a situation where snapper are inedible due to toxin accumulation (just like ciguetera), don't you think it would be a bit rough being blamed for that, when you had nothing to do with it, and there was no evidence any of your demographic was the problem in the first place? Hiya K I haven't seen any pilloring, care to point it out? I haven't seen any evidence the caulerpa in the NZ wild is an aquarium type (information I've read says there are two aquarium varieties, and a different variety in the wild in NZ). Anchoring is banned because it disturbs and distributes the weed. Afaik, no international shipping has anchored at the Barrier, only recreational boats. So yeah, boaties are a vector that has to be considered and controlled (possibly the only one that can be controlled) while control is still the approach. No control is absolute, so it is possible (even likely) that the weed travelled on a recreational boat. Could have been a commercial fisher as well. I note MPI have given up on eradication. If the weed becomes widespread I expect this approach will change. We are already seeing snapper with problems. This may or may not be associated, nature is complex and confusing sometimes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 386 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said: Hiya K I haven't seen any pilloring, care to point it out? I haven't seen any evidence the caulerpa in the NZ wild is an aquarium type (information I've read says there are two aquarium varieties, and a different variety in the wild in NZ). Anchoring is banned because it disturbs and distributes the weed. Afaik, no international shipping has anchored at the Barrier, only recreational boats. So yeah, boaties are a vector that has to be considered and controlled (possibly the only one that can be controlled) while control is still the approach. No control is absolute, so it is possible (even likely) that the weed travelled on a recreational boat. Could have been a commercial fisher as well. I note MPI have given up on eradication. If the weed becomes widespread I expect this approach will change. We are already seeing snapper with problems. This may or may not be associated, nature is complex and confusing sometimes. So what has any of that got to do with conspiracies and burning effigies at Parliament? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Psyche 759 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said: MPI ran a campaign. MPI spent a large amount of $$ on this. Unfortunately times have moved on in the last 100yrs and they can't simply put an advert in the local paper and have everyone become educated. I have seen it in may places. It was in the RYC and Squadron newsletter. Multiple nzherald.co.nz and stuff news articles. Volunteers have handed out phamplets over Xmas. It is in nz fishing magazines and it has been on the radio. It was in the NZ Geographic. And of course it has been here on Crew. Those are just the places off the top of my head where I have read about it. What method of distribution would you recommend for every user of the three bays at Great Barrier? I am not an expert in the "how" I am simply reporting my experience which I suspect is not too different to many peoples. I dont read NZ Geographic, no volunteer handed me a pamphlet, I dont read fishing mags and as far as Stuff and Herald- well the quality of the content is so abysmal that I skip through the headlines so for "consumers" of digital product like me there's a problem. Pretty easy to miss online and poof it disappears into the black hole of the net. I am not saying that there is no effort, but thats its not effective. How about on nowcasting instead of annoying garbage for marine retailers, how about coastguard include it in their public education programs, how about signs in shop windows, on the Barrier ferries and air services sites. At all the haulout yards in the region etc, the point is that if it could devastate the gulf then why such a weak response? We can argue the toss since you are educated and I am not, but dont lay the blame at my feet for not knowing more than a cursory overview of the situation. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvarkash10 1,073 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 1 hour ago, K4309 said: So what has any of that got to do with conspiracies and burning effigies at Parliament? Seeing as you went there. You've set out a series of unsubstantiated diatribes attacking the integrity and competence of a range of govt and local officials. You claim private enterprise would do it better. None of those claims have any evidence, they are just rambling assertions. This is a pretty common approach in the lunatic fringe conspiracy market. Which doesn't mean I think you are a lunatic, or fringe, or a conspiracist. It's likely that MPI's approach has not been optimal and plenty of recreational boaties are feeling set upon with facilities disappearing and compliance increasing. This being my way of saying your core concerns are valid imo, but your attribution is not, again imo. Hope that helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 386 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 1 hour ago, aardvarkash10 said: Seeing as you went there. You've set out a series of unsubstantiated diatribes attacking the integrity and competence of a range of govt and local officials. You claim private enterprise would do it better. None of those claims have any evidence, they are just rambling assertions. This is a pretty common approach in the lunatic fringe conspiracy market. Which doesn't mean I think you are a lunatic, or fringe, or a conspiracist. It's likely that MPI's approach has not been optimal and plenty of recreational boaties are feeling set upon with facilities disappearing and compliance increasing. This being my way of saying your core concerns are valid imo, but your attribution is not, again imo. Hope that helps. Good grief, is that how you react when you see an opinion you disagree with? Attacking the person, linking their view with fringe lunatics, but not actually stating what you disagree with and why? Kate Hannah much? Seeing as you went there, first. Please forgive me, but aren't you supposed to exchange views on a forum, or, as a moderator, is it your own little fiefdom to run down any opinion you disagree with? Now, lets go over your actual points: 1) I never said private enterprise would do it better. You made that up. I said that if a bureaucrat was in industry, they would focus on fixing the problem, rather than assigning blame. 2) MPI have blamed boaties for spreading caulerpa to Rawhiti. Fact. Or did you not read the story linked in the original post? 3) There is no evidence that boaties have spread caulerpa. 4) Further, if the rules are effective, boaties CAN'T spread caulerpa, cause the can't anchor in affect areas. 5) The Auckland Council marine biosecurity expert, whom I spoke to personally for about 1/2hr on Friday, believes caulerpa was most likely introduced by the aquarium industry. So what basis or evidence do you have to say it wasn't? 6) The devastating outbreak in the Med has been directly linked to the aquarium industry. 7) The caulerpa at Barrier originates from Singapore. How many cruising yachts sail from Singapore direct to the Gulf? How many ships sail direct from Singapore, particularly oil tankers? The post of mine that appears to have got your undies knotted posited that the Senior Bureaucrats at MPI are more interested in diverting blame of the spread than actually fixing the problem. I maintain that position. It is evidenced by the fact that MPI have had 2 odd years to prepare for a spread and new incursion, but they have no plan ready to go, no suction dredge, pvc covers and salt or bleach. If this was an oil spill you'd expect an immediate physical response. MPI have badly handled the PSA outbreak (got sewed and lost), and M. Bovis. It is fair to take the position, that looking down the barrel of another ecological disaster from an invasive pest, the bosses at MPI are personally more worried about avoiding criticism than actually fixing the problem. Even NRC are saying MPI aren't doing anything, ref quote below. Now, you have accused me of unsubstantiated diatribes, yet you made up the very first thing you said I said. Instead of going full Kate Hannah on me, why don't you set out why you think MPI are doing a great job (assuming that is your position, I can't tell amongst the personal attacks), and we can have a constructive and adult discussion about it? The invasive seaweed caulerpa has been found at Rāwhiti in the Bay of Islands, just days after Northland authorities slammed the Government for being too slow to deal with what it calls the world’s worst marine seaweed pest. The find is the first time the “foot and mouth” of marine seaweed pests has been found in the country outside of its Great Barrier Island stronghold. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 121 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 Is anyone planning on participating in the first Good below web webinar this week? I've registered for them but am busy for the first one so hoping that either someone here can report on it or it gets recorded and I'll watch it later (and then report on it here). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvarkash10 1,073 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 25 minutes ago, K4309 said: Good grief, is that how you react when you see an opinion you disagree with? Attacking the person, linking their view with fringe lunatics, but not actually stating what you disagree with and why? Kate Hannah much? Seeing as you went there, first. Please forgive me, but aren't you supposed to exchange views on a forum, or, as a moderator, is it your own little fiefdom to run down any opinion you disagree with? Now, lets go over your actual points: 1) I never said private enterprise would do it better. You made that up. I said that if a bureaucrat was in industry, they would focus on fixing the problem, rather than assigning blame. 2) MPI have blamed boaties for spreading caulerpa to Rawhiti. Fact. Or did you not read the story linked in the original post? 3) There is no evidence that boaties have spread caulerpa. 4) Further, if the rules are effective, boaties CAN'T spread caulerpa, cause the can't anchor in affect areas. 5) The Auckland Council marine biosecurity expert, whom I spoke to personally for about 1/2hr on Friday, believes caulerpa was most likely introduced by the aquarium industry. So what basis or evidence do you have to say it wasn't? 6) The devastating outbreak in the Med has been directly linked to the aquarium industry. 7) The caulerpa at Barrier originates from Singapore. How many cruising yachts sail from Singapore direct to the Gulf? How many ships sail direct from Singapore, particularly oil tankers? The post of mine that appears to have got your undies knotted posited that the Senior Bureaucrats at MPI are more interested in diverting blame of the spread than actually fixing the problem. I maintain that position. It is evidenced by the fact that MPI have had 2 odd years to prepare for a spread and new incursion, but they have no plan ready to go, no suction dredge, pvc covers and salt or bleach. If this was an oil spill you'd expect an immediate physical response. MPI have badly handled the PSA outbreak (got sewed and lost), and M. Bovis. It is fair to take the position, that looking down the barrel of another ecological disaster from an invasive pest, the bosses at MPI are personally more worried about avoiding criticism than actually fixing the problem. Even NRC are saying MPI aren't doing anything, ref quote below. Now, you have accused me of unsubstantiated diatribes, yet you made up the very first thing you said I said. Instead of going full Kate Hannah on me, why don't you set out why you think MPI are doing a great job (assuming that is your position, I can't tell amongst the personal attacks), and we can have a constructive and adult discussion about it? The invasive seaweed caulerpa has been found at Rāwhiti in the Bay of Islands, just days after Northland authorities slammed the Government for being too slow to deal with what it calls the world’s worst marine seaweed pest. The find is the first time the “foot and mouth” of marine seaweed pests has been found in the country outside of its Great Barrier Island stronghold. Thanks K 1) Perhaps I misconstrued your message. Accepted - thanks for hte clarification, and please accept an apology. 2) MPI has said it is possible / probable. Thats not blame, its asserting a hypothesis. It's a realistic hypothesis, as is tidal drift etc. 3) There is no hard evidence for anything about it except for its existance (and its spread through tidal movement). It could have come from a number of sources, some more likely than others. Thats doesn't mean boats are not the cause, nor does it mean they are the main cause - the fact is, no-one knows at this point. 4) This assumes all boaties follow the rules. Collisions on the harbour, illegal fishing and other activities tell us this is not true in all cases. 5) He may beleive it, and it may be a plausible hypothesis. But, just like the recreational boating as a vector hypothesis, that doesn't make it true. 6) I will accept your word that it was. However, we are not in the Med. The cause and vectors MAY be different here - and potentially the variety may also be different. 7) How many singaporean tankers park up in Tryphena? MPI has, according to their public information, tested salt as a solution. Its not viable give nteh size of hte spread area and hte collateral damage salt treatment leads to. I don't have the expertise ot question any of the other methods you mention, but I do note they sound expensive! MPI, like all govt deparmtents, is limited by its budget and hte public's appitite for tax takes. That's just a political and operational reality. NRC are no doubt miffed, andthey are also cash strapped. As to whether MPI is doing a "great job" I don't know. I don't have expertise in the control of invasive aquatic pests and therefore I am not in a position ot understand if the response is appropriate or not. In their defence, they are charged with controlling pests and threats to our ecology and our economy in a very open, very import dependant economy which has for years run a highly permissive approach ot potential risks - not just biological ones either. I do know that, like most Govt departments, they have been defunded and divested of expertise over many decades. Thier inability (if its true) to respond appropriately would not be surprising. This may well be a situation where your concerns of organisational (as against individual) ineptitude are well-founded. But I just don't know. Cheers 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
A.B 3 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 After reading these informed comments it appears that dirty anchors are a bigger risk of spreading introduced species rather than 6 month old antifoul? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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