The next yachting disaster

[Leftred 45]

A few people I know who've suffered serious head injuries in the past wear helmets or bump caps, more because they're vulnerable to even minor head knocks now.

The yachting deaths in the past 10 years or so fall into three categories. Falling overboard/boat sinking, falling overboard from a dinghy going back to the boat (usually not technically classified as a yachting death), and being struck during a gybe. The fact those gybe related deaths are almost always due to the sheet is interesting. Suggests the discipline of staying low isn't being extended to not working in the sheet-arc when off the wind. I know I've been guilty ("if we start to gybe I'll move" - "sh*t! gyyy" - *bang* - "oh sh*t that was close")

I've seen someone thrown by a sheet during a crash gybe. Took her a very long time to fully recover.

[Black Panther 1,701]

Ifi were buying a new cruising boat a traveler outside the cockpit would be one of my tickboxes.

[harrytom 679]

I remember back in the early 70s.Dad was skippering the RNZYS patrol boat. Just after the start of "A" class they had rush to ranger as one crew member got struct by the boom and went face first in to a winch.Ambulance waiting at RAYC jetty.He was ok after hospital visit but point is.Helmet going to do nothing in that case.

[Psyche 739]

3 hours ago, Leftred said:

A few people I know who've suffered serious head injuries in the past wear helmets or bump caps, more because they're vulnerable to even minor head knocks now.

The yachting deaths in the past 10 years or so fall into three categories. Falling overboard/boat sinking, falling overboard from a dinghy going back to the boat (usually not technically classified as a yachting death), and being struck during a gybe. The fact those gybe related deaths are almost always due to the sheet is interesting. Suggests the discipline of staying low isn't being extended to not working in the sheet-arc when off the wind. I know I've been guilty ("if we start to gybe I'll move" - "sh*t! gyyy" - *bang* - "oh sh*t that was close")

I've seen someone thrown by a sheet during a crash gybe. Took her a very long time to fully recover.

This^^

The injuries that Ive have heard about or experienced have all been due to the sheet and not the boom. On smaller boats where you have to duck, its the boom but on bigger boats where you can stand under a boom it's the sheet or blocks. Some boats are more dangerous than others, but even so it's the skipper/helmsmen who has the responsibility to maintain situational awareness and warn crew who are in the danger zone,  but most of all do their one job and steer the boat!  A really bad habit is the helmsman trying to pull strings or do anything other than steer. If you are too deep heat it up or if you havent got the crew numbers or experience get rid of the bag. Most crash gybes are preventable, ideally you should be broaching as the preferred wipeout!

 

 

[funlovincriminal 194]

In the coastal this year I accidentally gybed the 930 after rounding the Brett. The wind was at 80 degrees apparent just forward of the port stays and we were on port. 

We were too close in to the cliffs because we had a mare of a gennaker drop before rounding and lost our way whilst grinding the sail in over the pushpit with a cabin top winch  it took 10 or so minutes and my co-skipper (who is a Diabetic) then had to go and lie down in the cabin for 20-30mins while he recovered from the effort.

So I'm tight reaching in about 15-18kts with a full main and #2 heavy up, jib is slatting away because my trimmer is asleep inside and suddenly the boom goes from leeward to windward. It's a carbon boom with a big square top so it happened quick. Boat rolled to windward and bore away for about 20 seconds while I was trying to figure out which way was up, then Bang! Back across to leeward and we were all good again.

It was a big katabatic gust I guess off the cliffs which went over us and cut back in. Had a few more as I tried to gain some separation from the cliffs but nothing as bad.

Boat has a spring vang so boom cut a level track and I was never in danger but I can't help but think what might have happened if my mate was still up and in the cockpit or worse still trying to sort the post kite drop mess out. It wasn't long after that that we heard the radio chat re: what had happened behind us. Goes to show that these bloody boats of ours have the capability of being lethal at all times, and no matter how experienced you are, people get tired and unforseen sh*t can happen quick. And often it's the combination of a few seemingly innocuous things which set you up without your alarm bells going off. 

Scary eh

[Zozza 328]

Shouldn't Cat 1 - 3 be evolved then to have a look at minimising the risk of Platino like accidents that seem to keep on happening?  I mean, what is more important, to make sure you have three buckets, or to have a set up which minimizes to near zero your chance of getting killed by your rigging?

[Psyche 739]

If you read the Platino report it was accumulated error but here's the advice to crews re preventing crash gybes.

Owners and master/skipper

Crews should fully consider the risks involved in any situation and manage these appropriately. When
assessing risk of harm, care should be taken to consider;

The likely consequences of foreseeable mishaps involving the actual equipment installed (in his case, a very heavy boom relative to more typical cruising yachts). In conditions where unintended movement of the boom is likely or may result in serious harm, an effective preventer must be rigged to prevent uncontrolled gybes. If any doubt exists regarding the possibility of an uncontrolled gybe occurring, other options should be considered including the following;

• Altering course to an angle that reduces the risk to an acceptable level.
• Stowing the mainsail and proceeding under head sail and/or motor power, or hove to if necessary.

[Black Panther 1,701]

IMHO Platino was human error, totally.

[K4309 358]

20 hours ago, Psyche said:

This^^

The injuries that Ive have heard about or experienced have all been due to the sheet and not the boom. 

It doesn't actually matter what causes the head injury, it's still a head injury.

I'm fascinated by the resistance to even the thought of wearing a helmet by some. Many other aspects of wind-powered water sports require helmets now. The most obvious being kids dinghy racing, but all the wind & wing foiling, kiting and high speed sailing boats.

Modern helmets are comfortable and great. We aren't talking construction hard hats with a single chin strap. They are light, easily adjusted and well fitting. I have one for wind foiling that is incredibly comfortable. Not far off wearing a sunhat. 

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

48 minutes ago, K4309 said:

I'm fascinated by the resistance to even the thought of wearing a helmet by some

Same thing happened in snow sport.  Helmets were for kids and softies.

Over time, they have become almost universal.  A good thing at places like Ruapehu where rock is everywhere and often hidden veneer of snow.  If you ski or board there regularly you will see some pretty horrific head injuries just watching from the lifts, in other words on marked graded publicly accessible trails.

Platino is a different matter.  The forces in play would have removed your head.  No helmet would have done a lot to improve your chances if you were hit.  The report makes sobering reading, and I can see learnings in it even for us small timers floating about in the gulf.

 

 

[motorb 35]

 

45 minutes ago, K4309 said:

I'm fascinated by the resistance to even the thought of wearing a helmet by some. Many other aspects of wind-powered water sports require helmets now.

I think you'll find a lot of that resistance is against the possibility of some bureaucrat - who's never sailed before - making helmets a legal requirement regardless of the situation aboard a boat.

Similar to the life jacket rules brought in a few years back after a particularly stupid kayaking fatality, suddenly cruisers are being regulated due to some "lowest common denominator" behavior. Yet, 5 or so years on, any casual observer can see a total lack of compliance of the lifejacket rule in anchorages, marinas and mooring areas, so what is what is the point of the rule? Just so some people can feel better about it after the fact by pointing out any drowning victims were rule breakers?

People aren't arguing over having a helmet as a requirement for certain race classes where it's obvious to the necessity of such a rule; people are upset by further regulatory overreach into our personal recreation time, and in some cases being forced into one suboptimal solution when a better one existed aboard our vessel.

Most of these well meaning safety regulations are a blunt instrument at best, counterproductive at worst.

[motorb 35]

On 16/12/2023 at 6:20 PM, Black Panther said:

I also think there is an over emphasis on equipment and not enough emphasis on skills and practice/experience.  And attitude. 

I saw this in play while running a large motorcycle club with a disproportionately high number of learners an commuters.

ACC and other safety heads were pushing hi-vis jackets on us, yet the rate of incident ong our members wearing the jackets was far higher higher those without!

Long story short, the number 1 rule for successful motorcycle commuting is to ALWAYS assume you're invisible. The moment you break that rule, you start to put yourself into harms way. What we saw with the hi vis vest was the divide in psychology of our riders, where the ones who refused the jackets were following the no1 rule and taking full responsibility they safety, whereas the hi-vis riders were acting as if drivers could see them, and riding as such.

There has been similar observations with pedal-cycle helmet rules leading to increased average cycle speeds.

In industrial settings I've always found that the "safer" we made things, the bigger the risks people would take as they act in accordance with their own tolerance for risk.

Anecdotally, on auckland roads  I've seen the same effect with lowering speed limits and poor driving behavior. Looking at the statistics, yes, less injuries occur on roads dropped to 30kph, but then why are injuries suddenly climbing in all other areas? Road deaths have reversed course for the worst ever since "Vision Zero" came into effect, (but apparently that's a fact best ignored...)

So, if helmets are mandated on my little crusier, perhaps I won't bother rigging up that preventer, as the risk calculus doesn't add up to requiring one. Who knows, but I'm sure the safety crowd will make a big deal out of every "life saved" even if the bigger picture might suggest otherwise.

[motorb 35]

30 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:

Same thing happened in snow sport.  Helmets were for kids and softies.

In the world of offroad dirtbikes there's an interesting thing regarding neck braces. 

On the "for" side, we have concerned mothers insisting upon them as a condition for their kids to be riding with Dad, and newer riders who get sucked into the marketing.

On the "against" is everyone who points out there's no standard or evidence they work on a dirtbike

All I know is that when I wear full body armour I take bigger risks than when I ride without, clipping trees, harder into turns etc etc. On balance, I think the old man had the right idea in making sure we "learned how to crash" young, as it's paid dividends over our lifetimes (without any serious injuries)

Seems similar to stories I hear from teachers about young kids at school not knowing how to fall over and getting injured when they shouldn't have. 

Learning to identify and assess risk is very important as a life skill,  but to do so without consequences is like trying to learn to ride a bike with training wheels on - you don't really learn how to do it until they come off.

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

22 minutes ago, motorb said:

I saw this in play while running a large motorcycle club with a disproportionately high number of learners an commuters...

 Road deaths have reversed course for the worst ever since "Vision Zero" came into effect, (but apparently that's a fact best ignored...)

These are interesting but uncontrolled anecdotes.

It is true that research across a range of activities finds that just increasing the amount of physical safety equipment can lead to increased risk behaviour at a population level.

The research usually notes that this is because risk averse participants drop out because of the compliance cost or perceived difficulty. 

The hi viz one is interesting for all small vehicles.  Again, research finds that hi viz gear doesn't make the rider less vulnerable.  The same research doesn't attribute this to a change in rider behaviour, rather to the facts of driver perception of a hazard.  In short, drivers don't care what you are wearing, as long as you are smaller than them they don't perceive you.

Safety analysis science is complex.  It exists at the junction of human behaviours, physiological harm, social acceptance, and psychology.

The Platino report tacitly recognises this.  The crew all felt safe and comfortable right up to the point of failure.  It was only then that the design, engineering, systems, and training shortcomings all coincided.

Which is NOT an argument for compulsory helmets on cruising yachts, just an observation of the complexity we slightly evolved apes are not great at dealing with.

[Psyche 739]

I'm just glad we don't have to wear floaties when we go swimming

[harrytom 679]

Just watched part of the news and they had the Coastguard on about drownings and lifejackets.  The guy interviewed said LJ should be compulsory. Hmm living under a rock are CG? Both Auckland and Waikato quiet clearly state all vessels under 6m wearing of LJ is compulsory and skippers discretion.  

So if CG dont know the requirements then I guess we are screwed

[Zozza 328]

Getting whacked by boom with a helmet on is not going to do anything for you other than lessening the chance of bleeding.  The force of an errant swinging boom will still knock you out and / or overboard.  It is the same false sense of security that some people mistakenly think that headgear in boxing and rugby provides - it doesn't.

[Cameron 93]

On 17/12/2023 at 12:50 PM, Psyche said:

 A really bad habit is the helmsman trying to pull strings or do anything other than steer.

Coming from the biggest offender of the above that I know!!!

"Do what I say not as I do!" springs to mind!

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

37 minutes ago, Zozza said:

Getting whacked by boom with a helmet on is not going to do anything for you other than lessening the chance of bleeding.  The force of an errant swinging boom will still knock you out and / or overboard.  It is the same false sense of security that some people mistakenly think that headgear in boxing and rugby provides - it doesn't.

It reduces the risk of damage, and in some cases that may be the difference between a hell of a fright and momentarily stunned, between a short period of unconsciousness and being brain dead.  As I said above, once the forces get ginormous, all bets are off.

Nothing provides absolute protection.  This is risk management, not risk removal.

Again, not arguing for compulsory helmets, just trying to address unsubstantiated categorical claims.

[Zozza 328]

26 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:

It reduces the risk of damage, and in some cases that may be the difference between a hell of a fright and momentarily stunned, between a short period of unconsciousness and being brain dead.  As I said above, once the forces get ginormous, all bets are off.

Nothing provides absolute protection.  This is risk management, not risk removal.

Again, not arguing for compulsory helmets, just trying to address unsubstantiated categorical claims.

No offence, but that is not correct. Concussion is the brain rattling inside the head, and that effect does not reduce because you have a helmet on, in fact some of the new hypothesis is that helmets may add to the reverberation of the brain inside the skull as the helmet does not allow the "natural give" of the neck muscles or even worse if the helmet is not a proper fit.   However, hit hard enough helmet or no helmet, you will be knocked of your feet and or knocked out cold.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4981070/