Guest Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 This topic has been discussed on some other forums and as someone in the boat brokerage industry I thought it was worth raising here on this forum. It has been reported in the USA that there are 40% less sailors now than there were in 1980. New Zealand I expect would not be as bad, but even if it were say 20%, this has huge effect on the used boat market. Who is going to buy our used yachts? I did a quick check on trade me on what I consider bench mark entry level yachts, 1020’s, Lotus 9.2’s and Lotus 10.6’s and there are a total of 40 for sale…These are all now 30 year old and with an asking prices that are not far off what they would have been 5 years ago. A lot has happened since then, both globally and locally. Have our yacht owners realised this, or are we living in the past? These ask prices are between 30 and 50% of what a brand new imported yacht would cost. To sell, there needs to be some serious adjustment of our local used boat pricing. Our marinas are full of older unused vessels for sale, most with a very limited market. I expect this surplus of pre- loved boats has done more to push up marina prices than any other factor. Westhaven would look very different if we removed all the boats for sale. At the moment, just talking Keelers from Trademe, there are about 700 for sale in New Zealand. I am not sure of the total number of keelers in the country, but would guess it would be around 5 or 6000? Someone may have the correct figures? So, in rough numbers it is probably fair to say that 10% of the keelers in New Zealand are for sale. A huge majority of these vendors, if they managed to sell their beloved craft would not buy another, simply as they themselves are getting older and at the end of their yachting careers … The younger generation does not have the time or the money to afford a yacht, especially with the high price of real estate and the pressure to pay off the mortgage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dambo 44 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 My 40yo plywood boat is worth nothing (maybe the value of the lead in the keel) but it sucks money which means I can't afford a 1020 at the current market rate much as I'd love one... So, as someone in the boat brokerage industry Can we expect to see some cheap deals coming through soon? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,278 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 There are cheap "deals" now. Many boats for sale for what a suit of new sails would cost for them, and a tiny fraction of what a new equivalent would cost. But, if you want a decent boat, it is generally cheaper to buy the best of type, rather than the cheapest purchase price. If you are a long term owner, maintenance WILL cost more than the purchase price. Yes, it can be put off for a year or three, but it will catch up in the end if the boat is not to deteriorate..... Just using Bene's as an example here; Like a bene 46 for $165K USD or or a 1st 40.7 for $127 or a 34 for $100 K All listed prices, probably accept an offer. I know someone who bought a 39 ft Bene with everything for 90K. 4 years old and immaculate. Repo's in the USA - a First 35.5 for $45K anyone? Plenty more. Must be prepared to travel though, sail or ship home. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rats 43 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 And a 30 year old Farr 1220 is worth 175-200K!!! the prices of some local boats are no longer realistic especially when the first thing you will need to do is put a new engine in them and second upgrade the sails. There are some great deals offshore even when factoring getting them here and duty, GST. Now where was that lotto ticket..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,278 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Actually Rats, IMO some of them are. Some have the new engines, repaints and new sails.... But I'm biased towards Farrs!! The ones that don't have the maint done and good gear are NOT worth those prices at all... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 At the moment the problem is larger than it has been due to suppressed world prices and a very high NZ$. By suppressed I also include manufacturers doing some hell deals on new boats. I know of one mob who'll chuck in NZ$20-40K worth of goodies if you buy new ex factory. On a 3-400K boat that along with the high $ does make quite an attractive proposition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waikiore 437 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I.T. is dead right the internet is littered with bargains, and many are really well specd' the only issue is shipping : what used to cost me NZ$8000.00 from Long Beach now seems to have jumped to NZ$45000 plus? the three big boat transport operators obviously lunch together often! If you are creative you can halve these 'Boat transport" operators fees from Europe but it may mean you going over to shift the yacht and organising a shipping cradle, and then picking her up from Tauranga, well worth it I would have thought. The thing is we all know now what these boats cost in Turkey etc, and that is plummeting everyday, so if it is the vessel you desire to own and keep go for it, otherwise think long and hard it is not a profit making venture. One happy result for those of us who prefer kauri under us to thin glass, this year has seen the first big price drop in our local soon to be classic market, with those selling going for 40% under those 'for sale'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,278 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Great opportunity to sail back from Europe or the States!!! Make sure you get a bill of sale for the boat for $3.50 for NZ customs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smitty 4 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Interesting topic, timely for me. I've been considering a bigger boat with family on the way. I've always wanted a Young 11 & there've been a few available at much lower prices recently than in the past. Great boats but they're 30 years old now & this has stopped me from jumping in, maintenance & further drops in value would be a concern compared to a newer design. Problem is there's no real modern version of a Y11 type boat available in NZ. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Friends My take on this Subject. No body. NZ Fibre glass boats 30 years old when manufactured used excess resin content compared with today. The problem with polyester fibre glass made boats from that era, I know was thought to only have a life span of 30 years. The reason being that Polyester fibre glass keep on curing until brittle and crumbles. They might have solved the problem with the new resins. A lot, perhaps not all used excess harder for quick fast hardening. I would not buy that age vessel unless as a live aboard at a marina to beat house prices. A 50 footer multihull would be a cheap house probably under a $100,000, but would not have arising value like a house. But you would not have a mortgage, interest and mortgage renewal problem. Marina fees are cheaper than house rentals as well with no electricity bills. Wooden boats glues 1970 1980 eras life span was 30 years. So those boats are being held together with marginal strength and need re gluing and the like. Boats that where a classic whispers on Wellington had to re glue. Costs a fortune. Explained to me by a naval architect. A new jigsaw puzzle all holds together when new. Made numerous times after breaking from new. Try lifting the puzzle and holding the puzzle - you can't. Large pieces separate. Glue life spans now not sure. NZ prices are ridiculous - like the charter industry. Australia approx half the price and the winter prices is about 70% cheaper than NZ charter prices. You can fly return air fares ,charter twice as long more than charter a vacation NZ. An overseas boat the same applies plus the costs on sailing her, import duty, insurance ocean going terms costs, crewing problems, especially if I'm the crew member or any other educated crew member re repatriation should you have a disagreement, liability when they are ashore for all costs, fines, law infringement. etc. If the port you enter has a casino, you better make sure they [ the crew members ] are not compulsive gamblers. Any loses they can't make good, the captain is liable. Read the fine print when entering port you sign. How would you like to be told you can't leave port until your crew members casino's $300,000 is paid and if you can't pay then you forfeit your boat plus. or Your crew member got drunk and booked a pro $600 and can/t pay. OC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Great opportunity to sail back from Europe or the States!!! Make sure you get a bill of sale for the boat for $3.50 for NZ customs Great opportunity yes, but sadly then yet another boat no sold in NZ, helping to compound the local problems. There are a heap of different issues that have all had some form of an affect on the present day market. I remember many in the industry making the comment many years ago, that bringing in the Bendies and like was going to dramatically change the market and it has. Then there is the exhorbitant cost trying to keep a boat in a Marina. That has had a major impact on owning larger boats. I come across people all the time that would love to own a Boat, but when they find out what keeping it in the water is going to cost, that dream bubble pops. It has also had a major affect on the home builder market. 30yrs ago, it was as if there was some kind of project in just about every back yard. Now it is very rare. And that is due to very few people now days having the skills, heck even the back yard for that matter, or the time. Couple all that, I don't think we have the numbers of people interested in Boating these days as we did 20 to 30yrs ago. An enormous issue we have here in Marlborough, is the Blue Cod ban/restricted Season. It has decimated all the Charter guys. Just been talking about that a week ago. One Local charter guy has gone from 200 plus charters a year to currently 2 and they are looking shaky. Basically the problem is, why pay the cost of Charter to catch just two Cod. But that also has affected the rest of the Boating market down here to. Talking to the owner of a major Trailer Boat retailer in Blenheim, they have been almost dead in the water for several years now. Struggling to keep the doors open and they are all like it. All that does affect the rest of the Country, because Marlborough was a huge Boat market once, but struggling to keep going now and ones like Vinnings have expanded around the country, where as the other locals that have just stayed Marlborough focused are really quite. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Have you guys actually been on one of these "cheap" imports? I have and they don't feel anything like a good kiwi boat. You get what you pay for. They don't age well and after 10 years they look worse then a 30year old kiwi built boat. I think the market has been flooded with imports and that drops the value of other boats. Also, people expect more out of a yacht now, hot shower, washing machine etc... I will stick will good old fashioned NZ built boats for now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 386 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Interesting thread We have been looking for a 50' cruiser for the last year and everything we have seen here is either at least 3/4 of a mi or a POS. So we leave in six weeks to by in the Med It's looking likely that for less than $300k nz we will buy a yacht less than 5 years old and fitted out to a level not seen here. The biggest question on my mind is how low with my initial offer do I go ? 50, 70, 80 % of asking price ?? We will sail home, which is also a bonus Planning on taking a year in total on and off but if it takes two years then I won't be crying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darkside 63 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Jon if you have time offer low. Plenty of people are still hurting in Europe there will be bargains to be had. Also why rush? Cruising the Med is a lot of fun or park it up in Grenada/Trini for the cyclone season and come home. Really hard to get the time to go do it so make the most of the opportunity . As to quality there be good ones and there be lemons. However the liveability of a modern boat is miles ahead of old kiwi designs. I agree with going with owner/live aboard boats as opposed to charter if possible. Having said that we met people out in ex charter boats having the time of their lives. There is (or can be) a grace period in paying GST/Duty (if any) in NZ. We were told pay in seven days or leave (in Nelson) so we did. Another cruiser who finished his circumnavigation the same time as us (in Opua) said "I haven't got it" He suggested payments over time and Customs agreed to that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Great opportunity to sail back from Europe or the States!!! Make sure you get a bill of sale for the boat for $3.50 for NZ customs Great opportunity yes, but sadly then yet another boat no sold in NZ, helping to compound the local problems. There are a heap of different issues that have all had some form of an affect on the present day market. I remember many in the industry making the comment many years ago, that bringing in the Bendies and like was going to dramatically change the market and it has. Then there is the exhorbitant cost trying to keep a boat in a Marina. That has had a major impact on owning larger boats. I come across people all the time that would love to own a Boat, but when they find out what keeping it in the water is going to cost, that dream bubble pops. It has also had a major affect on the home builder market. 30yrs ago, it was as if there was some kind of project in just about every back yard. Now it is very rare. And that is due to very few people now days having the skills, heck even the back yard for that matter, or the time. Couple all that, I don't think we have the numbers of people interested in Boating these days as we did 20 to 30yrs ago. An enormous issue we have here in Marlborough, is the Blue Cod ban/restricted Season. It has decimated all the Charter guys. Just been talking about that a week ago. One Local charter guy has gone from 200 plus charters a year to currently 2 and they are looking shaky. Basically the problem is, why pay the cost of Charter to catch just two Cod. But that also has affected the rest of the Boating market down here to. Talking to the owner of a major Trailer Boat retailer in Blenheim, they have been almost dead in the water for several years now. Struggling to keep the doors open and they are all like it. All that does affect the rest of the Country, because Marlborough was a huge Boat market once, but struggling to keep going now and ones like Vinnings have expanded around the country, where as the other locals that have just stayed Marlborough focused are really quite. There are more issues re the charter industry with the Marlborough Sounds than the Fish limit. Keep the pretty big Cod. 2 each day, still a feed. A bit on the nose but that's the NATS and the commercial fish trawlers trawling the sounds for u. They should be prohibited from harbours and bays, Sounds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 386 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Darkside Thinking low but what will that be ? We have a line of them, first one on the hit list is in Spain then 3 days later we will be in Nice, I don't think they will know what's hit them. I'd hate to offer 60% of asking price and them say yes, but I guess if it's a bargin to us them everyone's happy And yes looking at non charter owners versions Not planning on much time in the Med but maybe next time ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Keep the pretty big Cod. 2 each day, still a feedThere is a slot rule. You can't go to big or too small. I agree two Cod os still plenty. Same with the snapper argument in Auckland. 7 is faaaar too many. Anyway, I'm side tracking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkMT 68 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I got this via google just out of curiosity after noticing something on trademe earlier. Seems to tell a story... http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/categor ... ceanis+350 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darkside 63 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Jon full disclosure here I paid asking price for the boat we did the big trip in and never regretted it. We sold it at over 95% of asking price and I don't think the buyer ever regretted that either. However that was a while ago and the market is different now. Also in Europe I think boats are more commodities than the emotional tie they are here. I wouldn't be embarrassed offering 70% with winter coming over there. They can always counter offer. Perhaps lower if there are a few things you don't like. Always buy a boat you will be happy to own yourself if it doesn't sell when you get back. Having said that we met Aussies who started selling the boats they had bought half way across the Pacific. That back fired on one guy who handed over the keys at Musket and had to fly home from there. But when will the quantum drop in used NZ boats come? Another dip in the NZD buying power will delay it a bit but it will come one day. But Jon can buy Euros today at over .63 which is just extraordinary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 With some of the comments, especially from engineering types, about the failure of Cheekie Raffity, amongst similar others, you'd want to be pretty careful about AWB's that are approaching 15yo. It seems there could be a very definite time limit on their structural integrity. Not all obviously but it certainly seems to be the case with a fair few. Having recently totally disassembled a 30yo NZ build machine and had a very close inspection of all the parts I'd be way way happier with that than a AWB of the same vintage. Me nor some experts have found anything concerning that isn't easily fixed nor any signs of anything 'end of life' like approaching. The price? cheaper than chips and far far less than the value of the fun it gives back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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