NZ Navy gets its biggest ship ever - it's a Hyundai!

[Vorpal Blade 89]

Does it have any weaponry or are they only allowed to engage with tersely worded emails?  or a down vote on Crew.org!!!

[erice 731]

it appears to have been built with an eye to fitting a couple of small-caliber, remote, 'close-in defence' weapons systems

to keep the sailors as safe as possible from small localised threats 

1 - a small high-mounted, lead chucking cannon, that could hopefully put up a wall of lead that would detonate a sea-skimming missile 

2 - a low-mounted somewhat similar weapons platform for putting holes in something like a small speedboat packed with mining explosives 

nothing that could 'shell' anything

ie no 'gun-boat diplomacy' 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy

it won't be challenging beijing for the spratly islands

  

[Dave 10]

I'd imagine she'd be dotted with a few 50 cals around the place for 'nuisance' defense (small boats etc.)  I doubt she'd be fitted with a proper CIWS like Phalanx or Goalkeeper as they're pretty dear (but extremely effective.)  As a force multiplying platform if she was deployed to an area of conflict she'd have a picket of frigate sized or larger warships looking after her and providing layered defense; the first casualty of any conflict would be the ships like the Aotearoa as they enable the fleet to fight.  In addition, she'd carry at least one, if not two Seasprite helicopters, which have missiles capable of engaging threats outside of the ships safety envelope. 

Personally I like the capability this ship brings to the NZDF; long legs and the ability to support our Pacific Island neighbours in times of hardship/disaster.  That she is ice strengthened is great as she can support deep south patrols of our other ships.  That part of the ocean has always been difficult to police and hopefully that will change.

  

[waikiore 374]

Add to Veladares list the narrow catamarans hidden at Devonport that were built for SAS and trimmed by the stern so too dangerous to use even when throttle stopped.

[Fish 0]

11 hours ago, Dave said:

Personally I like the capability this ship brings to the NZDF; long legs and the ability to support our Pacific Island neighbours in times of hardship/disaster.  That she is ice strengthened is great as she can support deep south patrols of our other ships.  That part of the ocean has always been difficult to police and hopefully that will change.

  

I agree with this on the capabilities.

I doubt she needs defence systems, she's an oil tanker, not a warship... have any of our actual warships every fired a gun? 20 containers, water maker and helo pad, she is designed for disaster relief and logistics, not force projection. NZ creates influence with aid and peacekeepers, not gun boats, that is our style.

I'm always mind-boggled by the cost of defence assets. But I've just read this article, and if ever there was a good time to spend on defence, it is probably now...

It would appear the boffins at MFat are predicting the collapse of the current world order, and the possibility of a 3rd World war.

Already 2 nuclear powers are massing troops at their borders, had a major brawl at the border last week with 20 dead on one side and 76 injured, No news of casualties on the other side. Its not really in our media, anyone know which 2 nuclear powers are squaring off? Its part of the new world order, not the old one...

Tucked away among the hundreds of mostly boring Covid-19 documents released on Friday was the bleakest thing I've ever seen a Government official write.

The paper, from the usually diplomatic and boring folks at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Mfat), sets out the problems facing the globe as Covid-19 continues its rampage, and how New Zealand can go back to being a part of that world.

In stark language Mfat lays out the obvious. Before Covid-19 the liberal world order was not exactly doing well. Global institutions like the United Nations were failing, protectionism was rising, and the countries that usually "led" the world had abdicated that role.

Then Covid-19 came along as an "epochal shock" on the scale of the Great Depression for New Zealand and World War II for some countries. The problems that grow from it would not be limited to the virus itself, the analysts write, but would also propel governments to collapse, people to be driven from their homes, and violent terrorism to increase.

"Security risks will rise as a result of increased instability, greater state weakness and more failed states; greater international refugee flows; reduced capacity in partner countries to address violent extremism, people smuggling and transnational organised crime; and more space for malign actors to operate given distracted governments."

As the Mfat boffins wrote, things are bad here but will be worse elsewhere. And sometimes what rises from the ashes is better than what came before. The scars of the Great Depression created the conditions for the modern welfare state and decades of prosperity. But it also led to World War II.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300043502/new-zealands-uncertain-future-in-a-world-coming-apart-at-the-seams

[rossd 16]

On 26/06/2020 at 12:49 PM, Dtwo said:

What, this one?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12342391&fbclid=IwAR1HKyJGpGOk4TlpfiuoT2YQ9tpchE1J2SzAOSiDPql6e0gS3cU6Zxj89-8

Great article. Should be compulsory reading for everyone in the western world

[erice 731]

10.30am tomorrow, the air force plan to fly over in welcome

https://www.facebook.com/NZDefenceForce/videos/2990592557644537/

as long as it isn't raining

[Kevin McCready 83]

DTWO, I used to work in foreign aid. In terms of supporting Pacific neighbours, if you wanted to waste as much money as possible for as small a return as possible,  you couldn't do much better than buying a monstrosity like this. 

[Black Panther 1,523]

Kevin I am interested.  Since you have first hand knowledge what is the most useful aid that we can give?

[Romany 156]

Yeah me too Kevin. Also gotta say it's interesting and helpful to know a little about fellow crew orgers backgrounds.

[Kevin McCready 83]

Best aid is often cash directly to poor people, who despite the myths, are well capable of making smart spending choices. If investment is needed  in health systems, transport systems, school buildings, training etc, then the equation changes. But it's still best to source and manufacture locally wherever possible. Unfortunately the aid game is set up to benefit the industries and consulting companies of the aid-giving nations. Consultants in the aid game make mints of money. I once got paid $5000 for a half a day's work flying up to China and back - I'm happy to say now that that was obscene on so many levels and I've tried to pay it forward.

But underlying all that is the need for a system of fair trade and free movement of people (allowing capital to move around the planet but not people undermines the way neoclassicals teach their ridiculous version of economics anyway). And before you start worrying about foreign hordes, most people like home unless Trumpistan or some other deranged empire is bombing the sh*t out of them.
https://kmccready.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/philanthropy/

[Black Panther 1,523]

Thank you. From my hopelessly ill informed position I have to say I agree.

[erice 731]

surely the point of a floating; desalination plant, hospital, helipad 

is for when helicopter dropping $5 notes is pointless because there's nothing to spend them on

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cyclone+damage+pacific&atb=v177-1&iax=images&ia=images

[Dtwo 157]

Surely there's a difference between "aid" and "emergency relief".  Sending a well fitted out ship with specialist equipment id designed not to "better" people's lives, but to "save" them.

There is a place for the military.  They bring a structured approach, with clear lies of command, in situations where that is required - as in delivering urgent relief if times of natural emergencies.  

And - I'm poor. Send $$$.  It will help.

[harrytom 626]

Great thing about NZ defence forces is the ability to respond in natural crisis around the pacific.Cyclones tsunamis etc

Sad part is those we help often get the cheque book out and buy from those who have not invested aid.

When it comes to helping our pacific nations we need an agreement of Yes we supply relief but in return you need to buy from NZ.

Interesting Kevin,no surprises there with Charity.Like most big organisations.Out front "Wow look at what they are doing for the community"behind the scenes how much more profit can squeeze out of those we are helping. Bit like save the children funds.Yep $10 a month to save a child but how much has that organisation taken off the top??

 

[Terry B 65]

If you don't use charities like 'Save the Children' then how do you get money to families in those countries?

[harrytom 626]

38 minutes ago, Terry B said:

If you don't use charities like 'Save the Children' then how do you get money to families in those countries?

As mean as it sounds but I do not support those charities.Ever since the late 90s when aid was sent to such countries as Ethiopia where upon it was discovered warehouse full of rice/grain etc were not being handed out to those in need.Instead weapons were brought.Sounds mean I know. but those countries are looking for aid.This is where I believe the UN needs to enter and distribute food etc.

I would have no issue to be taxed an extra $5/10 pw as long as the money aid was being properly supervised and gets to where it is needed.

Not having a bunch of collectors roaming the street and making a living and handing over what is left after expenses.

[Kevin McCready 83]

A militarized oil tanker is not ideal for delivering emergency relief. Some charities do invaluable work with very low overheads (when I was in the game Oxfam was good), others are very thinly disguised religious proselytisers with high overheads, advertising and high executive salaries (World Vision). A better UN system would be ideal; significant reforms have been stymied by major powers. Most aid is needed in war situations (though the unfolding climate crisis will pose huge challenges) so peace keeping operations are vital. Tight logistical operations can be delivered by any competent organisation, not necessarily military at all. 

[marinheiro 348]

11 minutes ago, Kevin McCready said:

(when I was in the game Oxfam was good)

I can only assume that was before Phil Twyford got involved with Oxfam!

[chariot 236]

I would not let the UN anywhere near aid distribution. The entire outfit is run by incompitent fools. Read Sir Ray Averies book for evidence.