SailGP

[K4309 258]

1 hour ago, aardvarkash10 said:

It was rather a lot more about RC not getting his way.

Nothing happened that he did not agree to beforehand.  The agreement was (I understand) virtually unchanged from the previous year.  Sail GP has already signed an agreement for next year with (presumably) similar requirements attached to it.  Talk of red tape is therefore grossly over-wrought since there was none wrapped around any of the deal this year or next.

He's like the housebuyer who is trying to renegotiate the terms after they have signed the agreement.

No.

He wants to run the event in Feb in Lyttleton. DoC / Iwi have said no, cause of the dolphins. That is what he is pissed about.

March doesn't work with the international circuit. So DoC and who ever are wanting Coutts to re-arrange a couple of other international events to fit in with them.

Noting there are 15,000 of these dolphins. Think everyone might be getting confused, thinking they are Maui dolphins, of which there are only about 50(?) left.

[aardvarkash10 960]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

No.

He wants to run the event in Feb in Lyttleton. DoC / Iwi have said no, cause of the dolphins. That is what he is pissed about.

March doesn't work with the international circuit. So DoC and who ever are wanting Coutts to re-arrange a couple of other international events to fit in with them.

Noting there are 15,000 of these dolphins. Think everyone might be getting confused, thinking they are Maui dolphins, of which there are only about 50(?) left.

Repeating for clarity.

"DOC does not have a role in permitting or allowing the race to go ahead. DOC’s role is to advocate for marine mammals and to carry out compliance functions if any incidents involving protected wildlife were to occur which may have broken the law."

As it happens, neither do iwi.  There is a requirement to consult, but they do not have a right of veto.

Russell's problem is he wants a race in a marine sanctuary, but he doesn't want to stop racing if it's a problem.  Now he wants that all at a time that is particularly problematic ie breeding season.

Whether it's a population of 15, 1500, or 15,000,000 is irrelevant.  It's either a sanctuary or it's not.

[brendong 5]

First off, I had TV3 on all Saturday arvo for the non event ..........Now, here's my problem. Dolphins need to surface around every 8 - 10 minutes to breath. So, for the duration of the non-event on Saturday that race course has TV cameras, Drone cameras and a whole heap of spectators with binoculars and I'd imagine decent cameras and I didn't see one single image of a Hectors Dolphin ..........Did I miss something? 

[K4309 258]

36 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:

Repeating for clarity.

"DOC does not have a role in permitting or allowing the race to go ahead. DOC’s role is to advocate for marine mammals and to carry out compliance functions if any incidents involving protected wildlife were to occur which may have broken the law."

As it happens, neither do iwi.  There is a requirement to consult, but they do not have a right of veto.

Russell's problem is he wants a race in a marine sanctuary, but he doesn't want to stop racing if it's a problem.  Now he wants that all at a time that is particularly problematic ie breeding season.

Whether it's a population of 15, 1500, or 15,000,000 is irrelevant.  It's either a sanctuary or it's not.

It is also a commercial port. Who would put a mammal sanctuary in the middle of a commercial port?

AND, he is very clear that he can't get the dates he wants in Feb. The reason given is because the dolphins are still on their summer holidays then. So while DoC and Iwi may not have the power of veto, some minority group somewhere is definitely throwing a spanner in the works.

[K4309 258]

1 minute ago, brendong said:

First off, I had TV3 on all Saturday arvo for the non event ..........Now, here's my problem. Dolphins need to surface around every 8 - 10 minutes to breath. So, for the duration of the non-event on Saturday that race course has TV cameras, Drone cameras and a whole heap of spectators with binoculars and I'd imagine decent cameras and I didn't see one single image of a Hectors Dolphin ..........Did I miss something? 

My pick is they were there on Sunday as well, and we just couldn't see them for the chop, oh, and they know how to keep out of the way of boats.

Very easy to see fish / seals / dolphins on glassy calm days. Choppy days and it is a struggle to see a kayaker, let along some tiny dolphin.

Hectors dolphins are predated by sharks, seven gills, mako's, whites. Turns out the top speed of most of those sharks are consistent with the top speeds of an F50. Mako's are the fastest at 74 km/hr.

And, those F50's are feckin noisy underwater. Foils hum like a bastard. And if the foils are so good they don't hum (which I doubt, all foils have a hum), then the amount of ventilation around the foil mast and rudder will scare anything off. See the amount of spray the comes off the foil masts? That is a lot of noise making energy right there.

Remember, it is only an assumption flipper can't stay out of the way of an F50. If it looks and moves like the dolphins apex predator (sharks), it is just possible the dolphin will stay out of its way.

[aardvarkash10 960]

11 minutes ago, K4309 said:

It is also a commercial port. Who would put a mammal sanctuary in the middle of a commercial port?

AND, he is very clear that he can't get the dates he wants in Feb. The reason given is because the dolphins are still on their summer holidays then. So while DoC and Iwi may not have the power of veto, some minority group somewhere is definitely throwing a spanner in the works.

So, no one is vetoing the date or the activity, a contract is in place, but Russell (sail GP) continue to thrash about throwing allegations about unnamed parties who are stymying the entire New Zealand economy.

Conspiracy theory much?

Let's be honest, unless you can show up with a marine biology qualification with a major in mammalian sealife, your thoughts on the capabilities of dolphins vis a vis an F50 are conjecture at best.  Well intentioned and honest, but uninformed in its most literal of senses.

The people who do have this expertise seem to think there is a problem.  For the moment, I'll go with the experts.

I think moving it all to Taupo or perhaps Rotorua, maybe Wakatipu are all very sensible ideas that get around the entire problem neatly.  Admittedly some logistics problems.

[K4309 258]

23 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:

So, no one is vetoing the date or the activity, a contract is in place, but Russell (sail GP) continue to thrash about throwing allegations about unnamed parties who are stymying the entire New Zealand economy.

Conspiracy theory much?

Let's be honest, unless you can show up with a marine biology qualification with a major in mammalian sealife, your thoughts on the capabilities of dolphins vis a vis an F50 are conjecture at best.  Well intentioned and honest, but uninformed in its most literal of senses.

The people who do have this expertise seem to think there is a problem.  For the moment, I'll go with the experts.

I think moving it all to Taupo or perhaps Rotorua, maybe Wakatipu are all very sensible ideas that get around the entire problem neatly.  Admittedly some logistics problems.

Sometimes where theories are hard to prove either way, it is prudent to revert to empirical data. Whilst it is often hard to obtain full datasets, some empirical data is usually better than none at supporting a hypothesis. 

The available data is that 34 events have been held globally, and marine mammals have not been harmed. That includes 10 races in this commercial port / mammal sanctuary.

Given that the verified number of Hector's dolphins is 15,000, it sounds like there is plenty of them around to hit, and they haven't managed that, so perhaps the dolphins are smarter than we give them credit for.

Anyway, aside from the dolphin thing, Coutts has also been clear that these 'minority groups' have added an additional $400k direct cost to the event. Sure we have a fair bit of 'he said, she said', but $400k is a lot for most events. His main points are that A) minorities have disproportionate influence in NZ - many examples of that, and B.) there is a lot of red tape and bureaucracy to deal with, to the point it is making the event non-viable.

If you take those points and consider we have lost the hosting rights of some major international sporting events including the America’s Cup, the Rugby Championship, Netball World Cup, and the Wellington Sevens. I'd say it's prudent we put aside past prejudices and given some consideration to what Coutts is saying.

[harrytom 643]

1 hour ago, K4309 said:

If you take those points and consider we have lost the hosting rights of some major international sporting events including the America’s Cup, the Rugby Championship, Netball World Cup, and the Wellington Sevens. I'd say it's prudent we put aside past prejudices and given some consideration to what Coutts is saying.

The Americas cup can be taken out of the equation.Thats purely a Dalton thing,didnt get his way so takes the cup away,. 

15000 maui spread around the west coast/lower east coast is not a great number.

Seperating Mum and calf is the issue,minority sport and seems here or over the other place you are in the minority group wanting to have GP regardless of NZ sanctuary. Why sign an agreement then cry??

 

[aardvarkash10 960]

9 hours ago, K4309 said:

Anyway, aside from the dolphin thing, Coutts has also been clear that these 'minority groups' have added an additional $400k direct cost to the event. Sure we have a fair bit of 'he said, she said', but $400k is a lot for most events. His main points are that A) minorities have disproportionate influence in NZ - many examples of that, and B.) there is a lot of red tape and bureaucracy to deal with, to the point it is making the event non-viable.

If he's prepared to release accounts showing this amount and it's direct relationship to unwarranted minority input, I'm prepared to consider it.  Otherwise it's just a handwavy claim.

It would help if he positively identified these shadowy minorities as well.

[harrytom 643]

One point no one has mentioned.kill a dolpiand damage the yacht.Then what would the discussion be??

[Psyche 633]

and he would have to include himself in his minority report as a promoter of a niche sport

"I feel discriminated against by DOLPHINS!!"

It's a losing battle in the PR space, he should have played his hand better. No one is going to win against flipper! He could have said we delayed racing to do our part in the global conservation movement and show our commitment to the environment blah blah blah and everyone would be on his side!

 

[Bad Kitty 252]

1 hour ago, harrytom said:

One point no one has mentioned.kill a dolpiand damage the yacht.Then what would the discussion be??

Well we killed 10 of them in commercial nets in the last 6 months, any discussion around who's eating Hoki?

I have dived my whole life, and am passionate about conservation & the world's oceans. But eventually we should acknowledge the impact we are having on the planet. We need to strike a balance. And imho the race there proceeding is in that balance. There seems to be an assumption that the race meant a dead dolphin, which is far from the reality.

It's a marine mammal reserve, complete with a commercial port, power boats, marina and a boat ramp. Oh yeah, and a sewage overflow?

So apparently, we care about them, just not that much.  

[Psyche 633]

33 minutes ago, Bad Kitty said:

So apparently, we care about them, just not that much.  

Agree, NZ can be a bit like this. Off topic but look at the Gulf cray stocks for example, every diver I know has reported that the difference between now even 20 years ago is shocking. The solution is simple if we are committed to rebuilding the fishery- we know how but just don't want to for either selfish or commercial reasons.  We could repeat this in almost every area involving depleted fisheries- we care but not that much! It seems that for many people the sea and anything to do with it, is "outside the environment" as John Clarke commented. 

[waikiore 399]

In last weekends case it wasnt Wussell that was trying to renegociate on Thursday -just saying

[K4309 258]

58 minutes ago, Psyche said:

Agree, NZ can be a bit like this. Off topic but look at the Gulf cray stocks for example, every diver I know has reported that the difference between now even 20 years ago is shocking. The solution is simple if we are committed to rebuilding the fishery- we know how but just don't want to for either selfish or commercial reasons.  We could repeat this in almost every area involving depleted fisheries- we care but not that much! It seems that for many people the sea and anything to do with it, is "outside the environment" as John Clarke commented. 

This is a very good example.

Not wanting to trigger your guys aversion to politics, BUT:

Any moves to manage the Gulf fisheries are blocked or thwarted by Tangatawhenua. The basic issue being that the treaty never covered the sea, and they see they have rightful control (some say ownership, others say Kaitiaki) of the fish.

This is why the current plan, which I think took 10 yrs to work out, requires the entire community to stop taking fish, accept for one minority, race based group. It is fair to say that if it wasn't for the customary rights issues around fish management, we could be far more rapidly advancing our recreational fish management.

Now, referring back to what Russel is saying, minority groups are having undue influence.

Case in point?

[harrytom 643]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

It is fair to say that if it wasn't for the customary rights issues around fish management

Had a read of Seafod NZ march issue.

Seems Shane Jones is against Reserves/Hpa allowing Maori with customary permit to take from closed areas.


So you may not hear me talking a great deal
about mataitai fisheries and customary fisheries.
I mean obviously as a Māori I know they’re really
important, but I ’m a wee bit different than some
of the other MPs  of Māori decent in this way…. If
science reveals to us that a resource is so stressed
that the public have to be excluded, then Fiona
it’s the whole public. I don’t like this idea that you
have these marine protected areas or you have
these reserves but you continue to provide access
for the local hapu. My hapu, most of whom live in
Auckland, they’re not going to enjoy that access
because they don’t have a marae or a settlement
near these areas. So,  if the science is so severe
that all  of us have to  stand together and enable the
resource to recover then that’s everyone.
Is there anything else you want to add?

[Psyche 633]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

This is a very good example.

Not wanting to trigger your guys aversion to politics, BUT:

Any moves to manage the Gulf fisheries are blocked or thwarted by Tangatawhenua. The basic issue being that the treaty never covered the sea, and they see they have rightful control (some say ownership, others say Kaitiaki) of the fish.

This is why the current plan, which I think took 10 yrs to work out, requires the entire community to stop taking fish, accept for one minority, race based group. It is fair to say that if it wasn't for the customary rights issues around fish management, we could be far more rapidly advancing our recreational fish management.

Now, referring back to what Russel is saying, minority groups are having undue influence.

Case in point?

There is no aversion to marine related politics but it almost always ends up in the same uninformed place blaming minorities for problems, but this is marine related so lets take this a bit further down the track of "we care but not that much"

https://gulfjournal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/SOER-online.pdf

Crayfish are "functionally extinct" meaning that they can no longer perform their role within the marine ecosystem, a good friend and diver with 35 years experience will no longer take crays or permit anyone on his boat to do so. 

[K4309 258]

1 hour ago, harrytom said:

Had a read of Seafod NZ march issue.

Seems Shane Jones is against Reserves/Hpa allowing Maori with customary permit to take from closed areas.


So you may not hear me talking a great deal
about mataitai fisheries and customary fisheries.
I mean obviously as a Māori I know they’re really
important, but I ’m a wee bit different than some
of the other MPs  of Māori decent in this way…. If
science reveals to us that a resource is so stressed
that the public have to be excluded, then Fiona
it’s the whole public. I don’t like this idea that you
have these marine protected areas or you have
these reserves but you continue to provide access
for the local hapu. My hapu, most of whom live in
Auckland, they’re not going to enjoy that access
because they don’t have a marae or a settlement
near these areas. So,  if the science is so severe
that all  of us have to  stand together and enable the
resource to recover then that’s everyone.
Is there anything else you want to add?

Yes I read that a wee while ago when Jones first said it.

My point is that there is a minority that have disproportionate influence on fisheries management - I don't want to get into the rightly of wrongly bit here.

But this is the exact issue Coutts is banging on about regards SailGP. Many people have been distracted about the dolphins, noting Coutts came out on the Friday saying SailGP wouldn't return due to minority issues, when the dolphin issue didn't kick off till Saturday.

And people have been distracted because it is Coutts saying it. Clearly he is a brash and polarising figure. Personally I think some people are hung up with what he did 30 odd years ago, but whatever.

Short story is that if you take the Coutts baggage out of it, and the dolphins out of it, what he is saying is worth listening to.

Overlay all the other international events we've lost, Rugby Championship, Welly 7's, and several others, what Coutts is saying should be ringing alarm bells.

[DrWatson 375]

This whole discussion about dolphins has me thinking again about the dolphin policy in the BOI.

Q. Has anyone actually read the scientific report and  study upon which the “bylaw” was based?

[Psyche 633]

I doubt that many have bothered because its in the too hard basket,  no one is going to heave to if some dolphins start playing in your bow wave!

 

On 27/03/2024 at 3:13 PM, K4309 said:

Short story is that if you take the Coutts baggage out of it, and the dolphins out of it, what he is saying is worth listening to

Ok, so totally unrelated 🤣