SailGP

[Black Panther 1,591]

38 minutes ago, DrWatson said:

This whole discussion about dolphins has me thinking again about the dolphin policy in the BOI.

Q. Has anyone actually read the scientific report and  study upon which the “bylaw” was based?

Not sure such a thing exists.  Best I can come up with is one person came up with the idea and it was adopted. 

[twisty 176]

I think comparing non endangered Dolphins riding on the bow wave on a 6 knot S#$%box to Endangered Hectors dolphins swimming in a Protected Marine Reserve with boats with razor blades under them do 40 knots is pointless, and in Coutts' case somewhat disingenuous.

[DrWatson 378]

9 hours ago, twisty said:

I think comparing non endangered Dolphins riding on the bow wave on a 6 knot S#$%box to Endangered Hectors dolphins swimming in a Protected Marine Reserve with boats with razor blades under them do 40 knots is pointless, and in Coutts' case somewhat disingenuous.

Agree completely. Wasn’t intending a comparison. 

[DrWatson 378]

9 hours ago, Black Panther said:

Not sure such a thing exists.  Best I can come up with is one person came up with the idea and it was adopted. 

I found a report that was linked from the initial discussion piece whenever it was that it was notified. I’m not a marine biologist but the scientific rigour one would expect to be found to hang a policy like that on was massively lacking. The report was at best based on a level of science  I would expect to find in a third rate primary school science fair. Mostly assumptions and negation of major untracked variables including a lack of evidence on food resource assessment and assumptions of human behaviour. 

[Black Panther 1,591]

Meanwhile 

 

https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350242260/caught-out-cameras-boats-reveal-massive-under-reporting-wildlife-deaths

[Bad Kitty 252]

3 hours ago, Black Panther said:

Meanwhile 

 

https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350242260/caught-out-cameras-boats-reveal-massive-under-reporting-wildlife-deaths

Here's a part of that report;

"Separately, quarterly reporting data published by MPI last week showed six endangered Hector’s dolphins died in trawl nets in the first three months of this year."

[K4309 268]

On 13/04/2024 at 9:09 AM, twisty said:

I think comparing non endangered Dolphins riding on the bow wave on a 6 knot S#$%box to Endangered Hectors dolphins swimming in a Protected Marine Reserve with boats with razor blades under them do 40 knots is pointless, and in Coutts' case somewhat disingenuous.

This endangered thing.

There are 15,000 of these Hectors dolphins. That sounds like a sh*t load to me. At what point does fifteen thousand become endangered?

Are people getting mixed up with the Maui Dolphin? the Hector's west coast cousin. They have something like 56 left - that is clearly critically endangered, and clearly warrants protective measures that come with economic cost to other people.

But 15,000? how can you justify significant economic disruption when there are 15,000 of them? It is not proportionate.

[CarpeDiem 430]

39 minutes ago, K4309 said:

This endangered thing.

There are 15,000 of these Hectors dolphins. That sounds like a sh*t load to me. At what point does fifteen thousand become endangered?

Are people getting mixed up with the Maui Dolphin? the Hector's west coast cousin. They have something like 56 left - that is clearly critically endangered, and clearly warrants protective measures that come with economic cost to other people.

But 15,000? how can you justify significant economic disruption when there are 15,000 of them? It is not proportionate.

Because that's a legal definition for threatened species that has a decreasing population - it's really not that hard.

They are a Threatened species, that are Nationally Endangered - which means if we don't stop doing what we are doing they will become Nationally Critical in the short term (5-10yrs).

The Maui Dolphin are Nationally Critical - they are expected to go extinct.

Generally speaking once something makes the Nationally Critical list it's usually a matter of when, not if, it becomes extinct.

When a species hits the Nationally Endangered list, it's time to make some major changes to stop the species getting on the Nationally Critical list...

https://nztcs.org.nz/

 

[K4309 268]

1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

Because that's a legal definition for threatened species that has a decreasing population - it's really not that hard.

They are a Threatened species, that are Nationally Endangered - which means if we don't stop doing what we are doing they will become Nationally Critical in the short term (5-10yrs).

The Maui Dolphin are Nationally Critical - they are expected to go extinct.

Generally speaking once something makes the Nationally Critical list it's usually a matter of when, not if, it becomes extinct.

When a species hits the Nationally Endangered list, it's time to make some major changes to stop the species getting on the Nationally Critical list...

https://nztcs.org.nz/

 

So what is really happening is the Hectors dolphin is listed as endangered because it's population is decreasing, not because of the total population size.

When all this kicked off, I was under the impression there were only a few hundred of these dolphins, that they were very rare and thus required protection. I couldn't really reconcile that with the fact that I have seen them myself without even trying to look for them. I expect many people are confusing the Hector's endangered-ness with the Maui's 'on the brink of extinction-ness' and conflating the issues. Then I found out there are 15,000 of them...

The extension then is why are Hector's population reducing? From human activities, sounds like we are catching loads in fishing nets. That has nothing to do with international sporting events. I'm still not seeing the criticality of Hectors population with the justification of such significant disruption and economic impact as is going on here.

Our national sheep population has been decreasing steadily since the 1980's. Under the above definition, lamb is an endangered species as well. (more so that sheep farmers are loosing money hand over fist at current prices). My point being that there is a disparity with calling something endangered just because it's population is reducing, when it has a very high population base already.

[CarpeDiem 430]

1 hour ago, K4309 said:

So what is really happening is the Hectors dolphin is listed as endangered because it's population is decreasing, not because of the total population size.

It's both. The population size is getting to dangerous levels where breeding can't occur fast enough to replace those that die. 

If it continues that tipping point will be reached. Once that tipping point is reached the species will be gone in 3 generations.  No one knows when that exact tipping point will be, but we know that if the the current trajectory continues the Hectors will be gone. 

Unlike sheep we can't import more Hector dolphins to complement breeding stock. 

As the only species on this planet that can actually make a difference to the survival of other species I think it would be rather arrogant of us to put the miniscule short term economic gain of a yacht race before a potential extinction event.

[Black Panther 1,591]

I was typing a response but CD beat me.

[CarpeDiem 430]

Just now, Black Panther said:

I was typing a response but CD beat me.

Bet it was more succinct than mine

[K4309 268]

2 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

It's both. The population size is getting to dangerous levels where breeding can't occur fast enough to replace those that die. 

If it continues that tipping point will be reached. Once that tipping point is reached the species will be gone in 3 generations.  No one knows when that exact tipping point will be, but we know that if the the current trajectory continues the Hectors will be gone. 

Unlike sheep we can't import more Hector dolphins to complement breeding stock. 

As the only species on this planet that can actually make a difference to the survival of other species I think it would be rather arrogant of us to put the miniscule short term economic gain of a yacht race before a potential extinction event.

I'm going to need more convincing that a population level of 15,000 is nearing a tipping point.

Sounds like there is a sh*t tonne of them. It is clear the risk is not balanced with the economic benefit.

[Black Panther 1,591]

You can't make meaningful statements about that unless you also know the mortality rate and fertility rate for the population of 15,000, 

[Psyche 634]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

I'm going to need more convincing that a population level of 15,000 is nearing a tipping point.

Sounds like there is a sh*t tonne of them. It is clear the risk is not balanced with the economic benefit.

Read some of the research https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/marine-mammals/dolphins/maui-dolphin/facts/

[CarpeDiem 430]

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

It is clear the risk is not balanced with the economic benefit.

Really?

And exactly what peer reviewed scientific evidence did you use to reach your conclusion?

2 hours ago, K4309 said:

I'm going to need more convincing that a population level of 15,000 is nearing a tipping point.

I'm am going to need a lot more convincing that your opinion should be considered over that of the world wide scientific community of experts that periodically come together to assess and assign the threat classifications to marine species. 

[K4309 268]

Crickey, you lot are easily triggered.

What is the risk?

What has to happen for one dolphin to get hit? Foils make a fecken racket. They are very, very noisy. More so underwater.

The F50's also happen to move at about the same speed as the dolphins primary predator. Dolphins tend to be fairly well adapted at getting out of the way of their primary predators. Most of them have done it before.

So we have two factors that work to reduce the risk of hitting a dolphin. Then we have the fact they have a significant population. So hitting one is going to have a 0.00667% reduction in the population. i.e. a tiny percentage.

That is if said dolphin doesn't get scared off by the racket of these foils, and can't get out of the way of something that is moving just as fast as it's natural predator (while making a massive racket).

Then, taking into account we have already killed how many in the last 3 months? was it 6? (I haven't actually gone back to check the number) but the point is we are already popping them off at a high frequency. 

Given all of that, it just doesn't seem balanced to jeopardize an multi-million dollar international event, with proven economic benefit.

You don't need peer reviewed scientific evidence to apply logic guys. And to need to fall back to that old refrain is weak.

Besides, science can't even explain gravity or how the moon causes the tide to come in and out twice a day. So good luck turning to science to win the argument.

All you can honestly say is that there are so many of these dolphins that there is in fact a high chance of hitting one  

[CarpeDiem 430]

9 minutes ago, K4309 said:

Given all of that, it just doesn't seem balanced to jeopardize an multi-million dollar international event, with proven economic benefit.

I think you've missed a key point in your assumptions. Namely that SailGP came up with the risk management plan.

They developed, wrote, and submitted their RMP, this wasn't forced on them by some government agency.

They came up with the rule.  They decided that this is how they would proceed if dolphins were seen in the marine mammal sanctuary. 

Meanwhile, the not for profit volunteer BOI race week committee came up with a risk management plan that allowed racing to continue in the event dolphins were spotted. 

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, you should take your gripe to the very people who stood to financially benefit the most from killing a Hector or two. 

[K4309 268]

4 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

I think you've missed a key point in your assumptions. Namely that SailGP came up with the risk management plan.

They developed, wrote, and submitted their RMP, this wasn't forced on them by some government agency.

They came up with the rule.  They decided that this is how they would proceed if dolphins were seen in the marine mammal sanctuary. 

Meanwhile, the not for profit volunteer BOI race week committee came up with a risk management plan that allowed racing to continue in the event dolphins were spotted. 

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, you should take your gripe to the very people who stood to financially benefit the most from killing a Hector or two. 

You are getting a bit selective there CD.

Sail GP can't get the dates they want in Feb cause of the dolphins. They have been told they can only have dates later in the autumn. Hence no Sail GP.

And what about the actual risk? still need peer reviewed scientific research before you'd want to hazard a comment on that?

[Black Panther 1,591]

27 minutes ago, K4309 said:

Besides, science can't even explain gravity or how the moon causes the tide to come in and out twice a day

I know a few physicists who would disagree.