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How do MNZ/YNZ view the widely accepted European Directive 2013/53/EU on recreational craft?

ie. the A through D classification for design and construction? 

It's understood that NZ has some tough weather, but it takes a special kind of exceptionalism to think that such weather and sea conditions don't also occur in the North Sea or on the Atlantic coast.

 

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8 minutes ago, DrWatson said:

How do MNZ/YNZ view the widely accepted European Directive 2013/53/EU on recreational craft?

ie. the A through D classification for design and construction? 

It's understood that NZ has some tough weather, but it takes a special kind of exceptionalism to think that such weather and sea conditions don't also occur in the North Sea or on the Atlantic coast.

 

Not that I know much about this, but if the objective is to make risk = zero then we should just ban offshore cruising.  It seems like that in much of modern life, that the individual analysis ignores the probability of an event.  What was the probability of being exactly where this yacht was and experiencing the actual combination of physical events that led to the deaths?  I don't know.  If it was fundamentally a design flaw or systemic failure then ban that type of yacht from offshore or have them fixed.  If it was poor decision making then the probabilities won, you cant (generally) beat the tail probabilities of natural events i.e. we don't design house to last forever, be impervious to fire or withstand an 8 earthquake.  Risk and reward, there is no such thing as no risk and absolute certainty (except death).

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The Yacht was on its way back to NZ, Cat 1 did not apply for that voyage. MNZ seem to be talking as if it did.

As DF says, maybe that design is deficient and should be banned?

Maybe everyone should have pre approved routing before being let go?

Maybe some Navel architect, yacht designer, Boat owners, Clubs had some input into the new rules? Love to see the correspondence.

many other unrealistic possibilities available, just like a few bits of screwed plywood would have saved this yacht.

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Every now and again a cow or horse goes through a car windscreen and kills an occupant of that vehicle .

windscreens  and  farm fences haven’t been modified to prevent it this happening again . Deaths at sea are extremely dramatised in the same way as shark attacks are . Offshore Sailing is way less dangerous than hurtling through pine forests on motorcross bikes or walking up Mt taranaki in shorts and T shirt . Both those examples of dangerous recreational activities have zero rules or restrictions placed on them . 

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Are these rules defined by YNZ or Maritime NZ?

How do they apply to them to offshore motorboats - a small number of long range motorboats in NZ also do the islands trips.

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40 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

It also bugs a fair numbers of cruisers who choose not to belong to a y c  (maybe up to 50%at a guess) that YNz pretends to represent them and can impose rules on them.

Probably better than having a  Govt. Dept,paid bureaucrat,and costs imposed by them ? It's a conumdrum

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34 minutes ago, armchairadmiral said:

Probably better than having a  Govt. Dept,paid bureaucrat,and costs imposed by them ?

I think you actually have both, neither of which appear to be very competent.

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1 hour ago, Fogg said:

Are these rules defined by YNZ or Maritime NZ?

How do they apply to them to offshore motorboats - a small number of long range motorboats in NZ also do the islands trips.

Maritime NZ have the overall safety requirement under section 21, they delegate the safety obligations for offshore boat safety to YNZ.

Yes, they also apply to offshore motorboats - they also need a Cat 1 cert, if you look in the back of the safety rules there is a specific section for motorboats including window coverings. I remember seeing a Riv in Fiji with perspex shutters on all windows.

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1 hour ago, Black Panther said:

There are other options.

yes, and it is not a good one - as Angus commented to me recently it would be a guy from Worksafe wearing overalls, safety boots and a lifejacket carrying a clipboard. How much judgement/discretion do you think would be given in those circumstances?

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There are other options. 

 

For starters an exclusion for skippers with over x no of offshore miles.

Another option,  drop the whole thing, we are the only country I know of that does this and there is a strong argument that it has the opposite effect to what is desired.

Another option, let the skipper sign a declaration that he has the equipment on board.

Another option  make it optional. 

 

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1 hour ago, Black Panther said:

There are other options. 

 

For starters an exclusion for skippers with over x no of offshore miles.

Another option,  drop the whole thing, we are the only country I know of that does this and there is a strong argument that it has the opposite effect to what is desired.

Another option, let the skipper sign a declaration that he has the equipment on board.

Another option  make it optional. 

 

you will need to have that discussion with the Director - Maritime NZ as to what satisfies her (noting she has been with Worksafe in the past), per Maritime Transport Act 1994 

image.png.8ae3e9a3d2e929ff581f73f64ec2dd7a.png

 

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Re the launches, I have personally been involved with advising on window coverings for a few, went with ply resin and alloy frame backup onto rubber gaskets, bloody dark inside but bolted through the coamings probably strengthened the boat.

Another large Auckland launch -we were never asked when got clearance but we had shutters for the forard windows and she was metal and built to 100 Lloyds A1. 

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1 hour ago, marinheiro said:

you will need to have that discussion with the Director - Maritime NZ as to what satisfies her (noting she has been with Worksafe in the past), per Maritime Transport Act 1994 

image.png.8ae3e9a3d2e929ff581f73f64ec2dd7a.png

 

Exactly right. Whoever is the appropriate person at YNZ should ring MNZ and say " we need to discuss this because it's not working. It's not working to the extent that rational sane people are looking for ways to avoid it, in particular registering offshore".

 

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1 hour ago, marinheiro said:

you will need to have that discussion with the Director - Maritime NZ as to what satisfies her (noting she has been with Worksafe in the past), per Maritime Transport Act 1994 

image.png.8ae3e9a3d2e929ff581f73f64ec2dd7a.png

 

Do you need permission to go to Waitangi?

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