The next yachting disaster

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

My wording may have been unclear.  Helmets reduce (but do not eliminate) your risk of catestrophic injury.

"Helmets were never meant to protect against concussion, but they can protect against more severe head injuries.

Hard helmets have shown to protect against impact injuries – such as a direct hit to the head – and can reduce the risk of cuts, scrapes, scratches, skull fractures or bleeding in the brain."

https://completeconcussions.com/concussion-tips-information/do-helmets-prevent-concussions-what-you-should-know/

Skull fracture and bleeding in the brain are the serious bits and moreso if you are 400 kilometres offshore.

Still not arguing for a compulsory helmet thing!

[Psyche 739]

I resent having  to wear a helmet on a bicycle yet I would never get on a motorbike without a full face and a lot of protective gear even for a trip across town. 

[Black Panther 1,701]

I would consider wearing a helmet really stupid. I wasn't kidding about the step ladder. 

And my wife would never sail with me again. 

[Island Time 1,286]

Hmm, my boat the boom is well clear or your head, and the mainsheet is not in the cockpit. = no helmet needed 

[K4309 358]

Sometimes, what we used to think was perfectly normal behaviour, or infact behaviour to be proud of and celebrated, sometimes that turns out to be really feckin bad for you. But it takes time to understand that what you are doing is stupid.

 

Before rugby league cracked down on the kamikaze tackles and high shots, a little Bulldogs player was making his name as the second coming of David “Cement” Gillespie.

Kyle “Killer” White was built like a halfback, but no one dared tell him to play like one. It didn’t matter what number was on his back, he would hunt down some of the game’s most feared forwards.

In just his 11th top-grade game for the Bulldogs in 1990 at Belmore, he sprinted out of the defensive line, launched through the air and crashed into Raiders legend Dean Lance, who was the cornerstone of a star-studded team which included names like Meninga, Stuart, Lazarus and Belcher.

If that tackle had happened today, White would be lucky to play again this season. Back then, it meant instant ascension to cult hero status.

“That’s one of the biggest hits I’ve ever seen on a football paddock,” the commentator at the time says. “Have a look at the truck that just hit him.”

The truck was White.

For years afterwards – with Western Suburbs, Illawarra and later Widnes and Workington Town in England – White would play with the same fearlessness in a top-grade career which spanned a decade.

Now, nine months after his death at just 53, it can be revealed White died with the degenerative brain disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), which is linked to repeated head trauma.

The tragedy of league cult hero Kyle 'Killer' White, who hit like truck - and died with CTE | Stuff.co.nz

[Zozza 328]

6 hours ago, K4309 said:

Sometimes, what we used to think was perfectly normal behaviour, or infact behaviour to be proud of and celebrated, sometimes that turns out to be really feckin bad for you. But it takes time to understand that what you are doing is stupid.

 

Before rugby league cracked down on the kamikaze tackles and high shots, a little Bulldogs player was making his name as the second coming of David “Cement” Gillespie.

Kyle “Killer” White was built like a halfback, but no one dared tell him to play like one. It didn’t matter what number was on his back, he would hunt down some of the game’s most feared forwards.

In just his 11th top-grade game for the Bulldogs in 1990 at Belmore, he sprinted out of the defensive line, launched through the air and crashed into Raiders legend Dean Lance, who was the cornerstone of a star-studded team which included names like Meninga, Stuart, Lazarus and Belcher.

If that tackle had happened today, White would be lucky to play again this season. Back then, it meant instant ascension to cult hero status.

“That’s one of the biggest hits I’ve ever seen on a football paddock,” the commentator at the time says. “Have a look at the truck that just hit him.”

The truck was White.

For years afterwards – with Western Suburbs, Illawarra and later Widnes and Workington Town in England – White would play with the same fearlessness in a top-grade career which spanned a decade.

Now, nine months after his death at just 53, it can be revealed White died with the degenerative brain disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), which is linked to repeated head trauma.

The tragedy of league cult hero Kyle 'Killer' White, who hit like truck - and died with CTE | Stuff.co.nz

I played rugby league, and it is the toughest game on the planet as far as the toll it takes on your body, and your head area is one of the main areas of the body that is vulnerable.  I got knocked out a few times quite severely, and had to give the game away due to lower back and hamstring injuries at the young age of 20 -- looking back I now count myself lucky as I had that kamikaze attitude on field where I took a masochistic joy in smashing 18 stone players in tackles.

I am still not sure though that helmets on boats are good ideas when I think the underlying issue is the way the rigs are being set up on some boats.

Anyway, good to have a civil discourse on this obviously important part of sailing.

Cheers

 

[K4309 358]

4 hours ago, Zozza said:

I played rugby league, and it is the toughest game on the planet as far as the toll it takes on your body, and your head area is one of the main areas of the body that is vulnerable.  I got knocked out a few times quite severely, and had to give the game away due to lower back and hamstring injuries at the young age of 20 -- looking back I now count myself lucky as I had that kamikaze attitude on field where I took a masochistic joy in smashing 18 stone players in tackles.

I am still not sure though that helmets on boats are good ideas when I think the underlying issue is the way the rigs are being set up on some boats.

Anyway, good to have a civil discourse on this obviously important part of sailing.

Cheers

 

I am definitely not advocating any rule changes or compulsion to wear helmets. Rules don't make you safer, assessing the risks and managing them yourself makes you safer.

It's more that I've been sailing for maybe 35 years and it never occurred to me to carry a helmet on the boat. Now these deaths and serious injuries are coming to light, it made me ask the question "should I?"

It is more about the inertia in change of thought and view of these things.

I wear a helmet wind-foiling and never thought anything of it. When I first saw kids in Open Bics with helmets I thought it was it was batshitcrazy OSH overreach. Now I understand the implications of head injuries (and have kids of my own), I think it is a good idea to normalise wearing helmets.

[chariot 244]

Only been hit on the head by the boom once. Had just crossed the finish line and a crew member released the main halyard before anyone had pulled the topping lift on. Hit me fair and square on the melon, a bit of claret but nothing serious.

[motorb 35]

15 hours ago, Psyche said:

I resent having  to wear a helmet on a bicycle yet I would never get on a motorbike without a full face and a lot of protective gear even for a trip across town. 

Same here, but I also find bicycles to be far more dangerous than motorbikes when riding in traffic. Ebikes are an improvement in power and stability but the brakes are still sorely lacking... and while pedaling might be hot work, my Ducati has a habit of burning my leg while stopped in traffic....

The fact is cyclists and motorcyclists are exposed to the exact same hazard around town yet only one is expected to be dressed for the event and yet they are the best capable to get out of a tight spot quickly and aside from licensing they often have specific training alongside that too.. One group is considered deserving of being hit by an suv or truck, yet the other gets special treatment and demands a special societal pedestal on the road. I could go on, but the double standard in how cyclists and motorcyclists are treated is just ridiculous.

 

Off topic rant aside, I agree with those saying the perception of safety is certainly variable, but a lot of that is circumstantial. In the case of sailing, it depends on both the nature of how we sail, and the actual design of our vessels. That is a decision best made by a (capable)  skipper as circumstance dictates.

As for helmet protection levels, even the motorcycle world is full of contradictory evidence and outdated standards despite decades of legal mandates to wear them, so I can see how the sailing world would have a similar problem.

[aardvarkash10 1,070]

4 hours ago, motorb said:

yet the other gets special treatment and demands a special societal pedestal on the road

Yup

[Addem 120]

20 hours ago, Island Time said:

Hmm, my boat the boom is well clear or your head, and the mainsheet is not in the cockpit. = no helmet needed 

I recently sailed on a Ross 35 and was astonished how low the boom sits with the sail raised. Easily at shoulder height when standing on tbe cockpit sole (im not supe r tall) . Is this normal for these boats?  Are they reliant on the spring vang to pop it up in the gybe? Or has someone made a longer leech in the main ?

[CarpeDiem 510]

44 minutes ago, Addem said:

I recently sailed on a Ross 35 and was astonished how low the boom sits with the sail raised. Easily at shoulder height when standing on tbe cockpit sole (im not supe r tall) . Is this normal for these boats?  Are they reliant on the spring vang to pop it up in the gybe? Or has someone made a longer leech in the main ?

Normal. This is a pretty standard height for boats of this era. 

 

[Addem 120]

OK. My  80s era boats all had higher booms. Moonraker, Challenge 29, Elliot 10.5. (Not completely sure about the moonraker it was a long time ago. 

I wonder how many heads have been hit on these ross's. I think it'd only be a matter of time.  We always ban people from standing on coamings when running but you can't stop people standing in the cockpit in race conditions  Trimmers, helm, pit.  

[K4309 358]

6 hours ago, Addem said:

I recently sailed on a Ross 35 and was astonished how low the boom sits with the sail raised. Easily at shoulder height when standing on tbe cockpit sole (im not supe r tall) . Is this normal for these boats?  Are they reliant on the spring vang to pop it up in the gybe? Or has someone made a longer leech in the main ?

In modern parlance, this would be a 'safety in design' issue.

It's not good to design or build something with an inherent risk of serious injury from normal use.

[Frank 157]

18 hours ago, motorb said:

Same here, but I also find bicycles to be far more dangerous than motorbikes when riding in traffic. Ebikes are an improvement in power and stability but the brakes are still sorely lacking... and while pedaling might be hot work, my Ducati has a habit of burning my leg while stopped in traffic....

The fact is cyclists and motorcyclists are exposed to the exact same hazard around town yet only one is expected to be dressed for the event and yet they are the best capable to get out of a tight spot quickly and aside from licensing they often have specific training alongside that too.. One group is considered deserving of being hit by an suv or truck, yet the other gets special treatment and demands a special societal pedestal on the road. I could go on, but the double standard in how cyclists and motorcyclists are treated is just ridiculous.

 

Off topic rant aside, I agree with those saying the perception of safety is certainly variable, but a lot of that is circumstantial. In the case of sailing, it depends on both the nature of how we sail, and the actual design of our vessels. That is a decision best made by a (capable)  skipper as circumstance dictates.

As for helmet protection levels, even the motorcycle world is full of contradictory evidence and outdated standards despite decades of legal mandates to wear them, so I can see how the sailing world would have a similar problem.

I rode a push bike to work for years and got knocked off twice, in one instance the front end of the bike was torn off, in another I did a fwd roll over the bonnet at 32 km/h. In each case the helmets were ruined ,  the offending cars were in the wrong but its academic when your life is at risk, I gave up cycle commuting thereafter  as I figured someone was sending me a message   Not sure I would still have all my marbles if it hadn't been for the helmet. 

[Psyche 739]

6 hours ago, K4309 said:

In modern parlance, this would be a 'safety in design' issue.

It's not good to design or build something with an inherent risk of serious injury from normal use.

Like a chainsaw?

[funlovincriminal 194]

9 hours ago, K4309 said:

In modern parlance, this would be a 'safety in design' issue.

It's not good to design or build something with an inherent risk of serious injury from normal use.

Soooo R930's are out then 🤣🤣🤣

[K4309 358]

3 hours ago, Psyche said:

Like a chainsaw?

This shows a good level of ignorance.

With the Ross boom, it is very easy to remove the risk. i.e. by lowering the cockpit floor a bit. Lowers centre of gravity and everyone is happy. Or, heaven forbid, just shortening the mainsail luff. The fact that so many other race boats can work it out demonstrates it is not hard. Far easier to do it at the design stage, hence the name, 'safety in design'.

With chainsaws, we have found it is really hard to cut firewood with a butter knife. i.e. there is no way even get close to getting the job done without having an exposed chain on a bar. Hence using a chainsaw requires several layers of other controls. Actually thinking about what you are doing. Training. Oh and a sh*t tonne of PPE. This is why every chainsaw has a picture of someone cutting their leg off on it, and a few pictures depicting kick-back and the need to wear a helmet...

The point being that good design removes risks that can easily be removed. If you can't remove the risk, then you need a couple of layers of risk management. The corollary of that is that Ross boat sailors need to be walking around in full body armour with NASCAR spec'ed helmets.

Thanks for the useful example

[motorb 35]

47 minutes ago, K4309 said:

cut firewood with a butter knife

Please don't give the h&s people any more ideas!

What may seem obvious to you doing a job, isn't necessarily obvious to others making rules about the job....

[CarpeDiem 510]

1 hour ago, K4309 said:

The fact that so many other race boats can work it out demonstrates it is not hard. 

"many other" is relative.

I can't think of any boat I have raced on with a high enough boom I could safely stand under it...

Elliott 1050, Ross 930, Elliott 10.5, TP52, Farr 1020, Bull12000, Elliott 10. Ross 35, Farr 11, Cookson 47, Cookson 12, Young 88, Young 11, Bene 323...  None of these I could safely stand under...

The one boat I have sailed on, but  wasn't racing, was a Hanse 400e that boom was far away...

Looking around there's a Farr 1220 and a Chico 40 either side of us that have high enough booms... But I don't think that this was a design consideration for the majority of the NZ fleet.   Maybe I just pick short boats...