Who is going to buy our yachts and at what price?

[Clipper 343]

The brainwashing at your place sounds just like mine.....

 

My 2.5 year old daughter watched the cup racing with me. Can now answer the following questions:

 

Who skippers Team NZ? - Pete Boiling

What are those (pointing under boat)? - Foils

What was that manoeuvre? - Gybe (to be fair, cant tell different between tack and gybe, but on those boats who could?)

 

And my Favourite:

 

Who crashes into things? - Ben

[Fish 0]

Absolutely!

My 4 year old corrected a much older visiting adult at our place the other day (great uncle) that "Peter Burling wasn't the skipper, Glen Ashby was, Peter Burling was the Helmsan!"

And she really loves it when we win a penalty...

My 2 year old isn't really talking that much yet, but he's not too bad at rowing (in the 4 ft Skylark) accept he goes backwards instead of forwards (its probably forwards as far as he is concerned though, its the direction he's facing)

[Fish 0]

Serious point to KMM's post though, where is sailing going?

 

We saw the O'pen Bic regatta at Manly the other weekend. Looks like a really good learner class, fun 'adventure' courses etc etc.

 

Anyway, there's this guy there selling foil sets for the Open Bic

http://glidefree.com.au/

 

So I was thinking, I can handle my little girl starting to sail in an Open Bic instead of the old fashioned Optimist, but by the time she's big enough to start sailing, will the still be sailing in the water, or foiling around above it?

Makes the family keeler look absolutely pedestrian....

 

Then I start thinking, I could get a wazsp or skud or whatever they're called (adult single handed foiler) for the price of a new mainsail, a replacement anchor and chain (at KMM's prices) and the house batteries I need to replace on the family keeler

 

i.e. for the upcoming maintenance cost of the family keeler, I could get a really exciting go fast dinghy, no more diesel maintenance, antifoul scrapping etc etc

Anyone work out why old keelers are so cheap?

[tuffyluffy 76]

Your kids are clearly more advanced than mine.

 

Our 18 month old was just pleased to be up at 5am drinking milk with the TV on rather than screaming Dadda from the cot. . . . . and so was I

[Black Panther 1,591]

I think it is moŕe to do with the money. Kiwis are not as wealthy as they used to be

[madyottie 82]

And of course trailer yachts will die out due to the inability of people to buy internal combustion powered vehicles to tow them. I can't see a little electric car pulling an Elliott 7.4 up the Bombay's, kaimai's, or even boat ramp really

[mcp 32]

Kiwis are not as wealthy as they used to be

 

By what measure?  I'm not having a dig at you.  This point has come up a number of times in unrelated discussions. Points of view vary a lot and I think it is a good discussion to have.

[Black Panther 1,591]

In my lifetime tou could buy a house and support a family on one income.

[SloopJohnB 322]

But we did not have 2 cars maybe 3 cars, dishwashers, 60 in colour tv's, media center, cloth dryers, 200 m2 houses, 2 bathrooms ensuite, build in garage, walkin wardrobe and a 19% mortgage.

[Fish 0]

And of course trailer yachts will die out due to the inability of people to buy internal combustion powered vehicles to tow them. I can't see a little electric car pulling an Elliott 7.4 up the Bombay's, kaimai's, or even boat ramp really

You'd be surprised at the near vertical torque curve of the EV. Properly spec'ed EV would have no problem towing a TY up any of those hills. You're probable more worried about the range anxiety, I.e. Your batteries going flat half way up.

 

Likewise, you'd by surprised how many hybrid work trucks are already about. A certain national roading contractor is into them in a big way.

[Beccara 25]

SloopJohnB, God no, Who could afford them.

 

The washing machine? 1965 $109 quid or $4k in todays $

A fridge? 1965 $119 quid, $4300 in todays $

Vacuum 1949 $29 quid, $2040 in todays $

 

(NZ Stats)

 

It's a good thing the price on appliances have fallen too, House price to income ratios have gone from 2.1:1 to 8.5:1 since the 50's. Incomes haven't kept up. It's a lucky few who can afford a single income and support a house and/or family. 

 

It's no surprise globally the number of sailors is dropping like a rock, Globally more and more of the household income is tied up in the basics. You increasingly need to be in a high-end job/career path.

 

At work the other week I found myself to be part of the problem too, We need a couple of people who can take calls from clients and feed them into our ticketing system, Low end stuff really and had we had no choice would have gone to a couple of school leavers looking for a fairly easy job to pad their CV, however, I can pick up a pair of Asian's working remotely overseas for $10k NZD/yr and hire/fire them on a weeks notice to scale with the companies demands, English is great and there's a whole directory with audio samples of each of the works so you can pick the ones based on skill AND how 'overseas' they sound, So there are 2 jobs overseas because of the internet.

 

 

 

 

KM: Media Centre are things like Apple TV/Chrome Cast etc, Basically computers attached to the TV able to play files or streaming services like Netflix

[Fish 0]

In your lifetime there are many who still can and do.

 

We've never been a 2 income family and we have never been in the top tax bracket, even today. It's all about 'needs' and 'wants', those who know the difference are doing fine, those that don't are the ones bitching.

 

 

Sloop, what is a 'media centre'? I'm guessing it's not the bit of furniture the TV sits on

I'm sorry KM, but I'm just going to have to come out and say it.

I think your out of touch with reality.

[Fish 0]

I rather expect explaining reality, alternative reality, fake reality and drug induced reality to you is going to be futile.

 

What I would say though is, the future is coming, ready or not. 

Things are changing, big time, and if you can't adapt, well, you will end up in an alternative reality.

 

Boats are changing, use of boats is changing, expectations of leisure time is changing.

It wasn't that long ago that the majority of people on this site were deriding the "Awful White Boats" AWB's imported from Europe, all the issues, poor build quality, cheap construction, dodgy keel attachments etc. Truth is, they are cheaper, offer greater utility of use and need sh*t loads less maintenance than the 30 yr old kiwi boat everyone on is thread is saying are dropping substantially in value.

I can get a three bedroom 2 bathroom yacht with a SEVEN year warranty, 35 ft, for $254k. Or I could spend all my spare time trying to keep my 30 yr old kiwi build in a seaworthy condition. Its really making me stop and think.

So Jon and Booboo are off doing it, while we sit around and whine about it.....

 

Further, your derision of the America's Cup, you can think what you want of it, thats fine, but there are several posts on here (mine and Clippers) that demonstrate that is directly engaging with the next generation of sailors. Generation skiff is a real thing. Benetau are launching a foiling production cruiser, they can clearly see where the world is going.

 

there was a time when everyone sailed in heavy leaky boats (caulking) without engines, with hemp ropes and stretchy fabric sails, and thought it was great, along came auxillary engines, nylon rope, dacron sails (or aramid, or carbon , or kevlar etc etc). People used to use wooden masts. Now alloy looks old school....

 

The old tech lead mine 30 yr old kiwi boats are loosing their utility. they take more time to maintain than you get to sail on them. If you buy one, you are buying a big piece of liability. If you want to get on the water, either for racing or quality family time, there are better alternatives. Hence these boats aren't worth anything now.

 

Much like the old three speed manual HQ Holden with a big heavy motor and an AM radio, along came the Jap cars with air con, FM radio, electric windows etc etc

[Fish 0]

I can't see the connection between housing affordability and foiling cruisers or the AC.

 

 

Please do try to stay on topic.

[raz88 96]

A foiling Figaro is not exactly a cruiser... Or are beneteau making some other type of foiler too?

 

I have to agree with a lot of what is said here though.

 

To keep our 34 footer (which won't quite fit a 10m berth) at westhaven costs around 10k per year. Throw in an annual haul out and antifoul, insurance, general maintenance, yacht club membership, replace a sail every few years etc and it probably costs 20k a year to keep the boat.

 

Not everyone has that spare, it may represent a similar proportion of average income to what it did in the past, but I'm with the earlier comments that Joe public's income is being more taken up by necessities like housing which have increased in cost significantly compared to income leaving less for the fun stuff.

[MarkMT 68]

Truth is, they are cheaper, offer greater utility of use and need sh*t loads less maintenance than the 30 yr old kiwi boat everyone on is thread is saying are dropping substantially in value.

I can get a three bedroom 2 bathroom yacht with a SEVEN year warranty, 35 ft, for $254k. Or I could spend all my spare time trying to keep my 30 yr old kiwi build in a seaworthy condition. 

 

A 30 yr old kiwi 35fter costs more than $254k? Ok, I get that you probably meant on some kind of cost/benefit basis. Still the point is debatable, but in any case, I think you're actually making KM's point for him (which funnily enough had nothing to do with kiwi vs foreign boats).

[raz88 96]

A 30 yr old kiwi 35fter costs more than $254k? Ok, I get that you probably meant on some kind of cost/benefit basis. Still the point is debatable, but in any case, I think you're actually making KM's point for him (which funnily enough had nothing to do with kiwi vs foreign boats).

Also the 254k 35 footer is still going to need maintenance and berthage etc. Might need slightly less, but it'll still need an antifoul each year, engine servicing etc. You might save some time but a tidy 30 year old 35 footer for 80k looks pretty appealing to most people compared to a new one at 250k I'd have thought.

[muzled 140]

Unless you pay cash for your $245K boat it's not a $245K boat is it, pay that off over ten years and it's a $300k+ boat.

 

Personally I think the $60-$80K, 30 year old boats are pretty good value, 2nd head be damned.

[Fish 0]

Unless you pay cash for your $245K boat it's not a $245K boat is it, pay that off over ten years and it's a $300k+ boat.

 

Personally I think the $60-$80K, 30 year old boats are pretty good value, 2nd head be damned.

So that is fairly much what this thread is about. Initially people were asking "is the price dropping on older kiwi boats, what is the market doing,etc etc"

The point I want to make with the $254k new boat, is that becomes the upper ceiling for what an old boat is worth. There is a wide spetrum of attributes across the range of boats, some don't want two heads, some don't want to (or can't) do endless maintenance.

Not everyone thinks $60-$80 for a 30 year old boat is a good proposition, some do.

My main point is the availability of very "affordable" (cheap) new boats, with long warrantees etc etc, is pushing down the value of the existing boat stock.

 

I think the purposed of the second head is mainly as a wet locker for hanging oil-skins, wet towels, snorkel gear etc. I don't think you need two heads in a family boat either, its just how they come.

 

And KM, there is a lot, a significant amount of info on the internet, from reliable sources (and some un-reliable) that it is damn near impossible for a  first home buyer to buy in Auckland, let alone on one income. 

[ex TL systems 63]

The reality is that you can buy a boat for around 30 k or less that is fine to cruise the Gulf or even further afield if you are a little more adventurous or less risk adverse and prepared to avoid cat one rules.    Not too many workers that are able to spend 250 k on what is an unnecessary liability with ongoing expenses.   If it was just me sailing I could go out and buy a little trailer sailer for 3k that would take me to great barrier easily enough and cost very little to own, or a bit more for a GRt Barrier Express that would be a blast to sail but miserable to sleep inside of.     And when it comes to selling its way easier to find a buyer for a cheap boat than even an 80 k one that seems good value, lots of boats on the market that will still not move at half the asking price, IMHO.